Did Jack Quit Ennis?

[janjo]

It must have been a very tough time in all sorts of ways, I was too young for it to affect me much, but all of this pretending to be one thing when you were really another, was horrible.

[Desecra]

Yes, and one of the things that the story really brought home to me, was how difficult it was to feel good about who/what you were.  Obviously, they couldn't be "out", but neither could they be "proud".  I can understand why gay Pride is called "pride", rather than, say, "celebration or something": because people were taught to feel shame, the opposite of pride. 

[morrobay]

but I can blame ennis for marrying alma. that he could have avoided if he wasn't so... thick headed, I guess. jack , on the other hand, married lureen for the cash, and because she was attractive. at least that is the impression I got. he found a rich girl with money, and good looks to match. but it was also outright lying, or in this case, conniving. (unless you think jack was straight, and really not gay.)

sham marriages. beards. sigh.. so many closeted gays did it back then. so was it really that bad? or was it simply a survival tactic?

Oh, Jimmy, you don't really blame Ennis for marrying Alma, do you?  I don't think he could have avoided it at all...it would never even occur to him that there was any other choice or option...1963 rural Wyoming, there was no choice/option.  I can only see it as a survival tactic if he knew he was choosing Alma over Jack, but he didn't even know that.  Marriage was just what came next...

[chapeaugris]

Oh, Jimmy, you don't really blame Ennis for marrying Alma, do you?  I don't think he could have avoided it at all...it would never even occur to him that there was any other choice or option...1963 rural Wyoming, there was no choice/option.  I can only see it as a survival tactic if he knew he was choosing Alma over Jack, but he didn't even know that.  Marriage was just what came next...

Don't forget that Ennis lost his own family at a young age. He didn't need to get married so young, he could have waited, but he was unconsciously trying to recreate a family for himself. I think at that point that desire was as strong, if not stronger, than his fear of being bashed.

[Desecra]

And I think in the short story, he honestly didn't know what he was doing.  He explains later that he didn't know what he felt for Jack until a year later (after he was married and had a child), by which time it was "too late".   

[kathy]

Oh, Jimmy, you don't really blame Ennis for marrying Alma, do you?  I don't think he could have avoided it at all...it would never even occur to him that there was any other choice or option...1963 rural Wyoming, there was no choice/option.  I can only see it as a survival tactic if he knew he was choosing Alma over Jack, but he didn't even know that.  Marriage was just what came next...

**Ditto.**

kathy

[Marge_Innavera]

^^^ wow! awesome post! I have called jack a liar in the past and oh. my. god. did I get my head bit off...  


yep, jack was a pissant and a half, but he wasn't gonna miss out on life. jack even lied to ennis about joe, or at least he didn't say anything to ennis about joe knowing that they were stemming the rose. of course it was probably to protect ennis, or himself. jack mighta been a dumbass, but he wasn't stupid.  

Actually, he doesn't lie; he just leaves out certain information.  He says that he went up to Brokeback (true) last summer (no reason to doubt the timing) and Aguirre said Ennis wasn't there (okay, fudged a bit) so he left (true).  I doubt there are many people who haven't done something like that.  Truth-telling can be overrated in some contexts.

if ennis knew that joe was aware about the queer sex, I bet he would have flipped out right there in the motel room and there would have been a whole new set of blood stained shirts, or socks.  

Which in ths case, is the reason he left out the information.  

[Marge_Innavera]

Oh, Jimmy, you don't really blame Ennis for marrying Alma, do you?  I don't think he could have avoided it at all...it would never even occur to him that there was any other choice or option...1963 rural Wyoming, there was no choice/option.  I can only see it as a survival tactic if he knew he was choosing Alma over Jack, but he didn't even know that.  Marriage was just what came next...

Right. In 1963, people were expected to marry and produce children, and do so fairly early.  A straight person could buck the trend, despite the nosy questions and tiresome remarks, a gay person couldn't.  But in Ennis' case, he was probably just doing what everyone else in his culture did, and the conventional wisdom about same-sex activity among young men, especially in an isolated situation, was that it was something you just grew out of.  Ennis didn't have the resources for it to occur to him to even question that. 

[gnash]

Yes, that's true..... and, he also had promised to marry alma.

They were engaged, so he couldn't have backed out of it. del mar, a man of his word.

Even so, I'm sure there were plenty of men in the early sixties that avoided marriage... but they probably already recognized that they were gay early on.

Unlike ennis.

[royandronnie]

I think for Ennis there were practical considerations, too--a wife would cook and clean for him. All he had to do was provide the money for a roof over their heads.

Jack as liar. Well, he certainly does lie, but I don't think he does it because he's one of nature's truth-avoiders or -embellishers. It's more a question of what he lies about--anything to do with his sexuality. Ennis denies his, Jack lies about his--overtly to Ennis. But why does he lie? Because Ennis "ain't queer." If he wants Ennis to have do with him, he's got to play the game. So, no frank talk about Jimbo, or spending money, or Mexico. Can you see Ennis' reaction to "Sometimes I miss you so much, I go to Juarez and pay five guys to fuck me?" Jack is a survivor, and surviving, in his case, means lying early and often. The thing is, lying about his sexuality, which implies that after a point he knows perfectly well he's gay and more or less accepts it, allows him to experience it. We can agree he'd rather experience it with Ennis, but Ennis won't live with him, lives 1200 miles away, and will only allow visits two or three times a year max. So…when Jack feels the itch, he scratches. And lies.

[Marge_Innavera]

Jack as liar. Well, he certainly does lie, but I don't think he does it because he's one of nature's truth-avoiders or -embellishers. It's more a question of what he lies about--anything to do with his sexuality. Ennis denies his, Jack lies about his--overtly to Ennis. But why does he lie? Because Ennis "ain't queer." If he wants Ennis to have do with him, he's got to play the game. So, no frank talk about Jimbo, or spending money, or Mexico. Can you see Ennis' reaction to "Sometimes I miss you so much, I go to Juarez and pay five guys to fuck me?" Jack is a survivor, and surviving, in his case, means lying early and often. The thing is, lying about his sexuality, which implies that after a point he knows perfectly well he's gay and more or less accepts it, allows him to experience it. We can agree he'd rather experience it with Ennis, but Ennis won't live with him, lives 1200 miles away, and will only allow visits two or three times a year max. So…when Jack feels the itch, he scratches. And lies.

Ennis consistently lies in the sense that his life is falsehood -- but it's Jack who gets raked over the coals for lying.  Very depressing.

[fofol]

I  think sometimes that we are called on to do something, or learn something, that at first doesn't seem to fit.  E.g., Jack deliberately lies to Ennis, as in when asked a certain question his response in not the truth: he does have sex with other men, not just with Ennis; they both marry women who think they're getting heterosexual husbands, etc.  The trick is to let go of the very strong and very human tendency to judge.  Sometimes there are overriding concerns that make not telling the truth the simplest, least destructive way to deal with an issue (of course, the opposite is also sometimes true), so it seems to make sense to withhold a judgment 'against' until we consider the consequences of the lie, and the value of the outcome as compared to the situation before the lie is offered.  This is how we all work it, naturally, but is it too fuzzy to consider?

[george66]

Ennis consistently lies in the sense that his life is falsehood -- but it's Jack who gets raked over the coals for lying.  Very depressing.

Both of them was actually living a falsehood because both of them was living in the closet and that's a form of lie itself and it's pretty much even when it comes to both of them being raked over the coals for it. They had their own individual reasons for being in the closet...but they still were in the closet living a lie and a falsehood.

But as fofol pointed out we have to remember the context in which our boys felt the need to lie. In a perfect it's highly doubtful they would have lied about anything. Not to their wives, not to their children, not to the society in which they lived in, and more importantly, not to themselves or too each other. Some times we're force to do things that we don't wish to do but we do it in order to survive. And that's true for both Jack and Ennis.


george

[fofol]

I wouldn't mind seeing people having sex in the street now and then!    But, seriously, I like to see public affection.

In Ennis's case, though, I think he seriously thought they would get killed if they kissed in the wrong place, and he probably wasn't far off the mark.  I suppose back then, very, very little was seen in the media.   Even people who were known to be gay, or suspected to be gay, did not kiss in public, and their partners were known by euphimisms (friend, manager, protege, etc.).    I don't suppose Rich and Earl did anything much in public - living together was enough. 

My feeling is still that what they did up there was limited enough, that Ennis didn't flip out about Joe seeing them, even when Jack told him about the binoculars (and that's why he didn't bother about being seen at the time).  That's just the short story, though.  I think in both, though, they don't hug at the end of the summer. 

I am shocked, I tell, you, shocked!  You've been listening to that Beatles tune, "Why don't we do it in the road?" haven't you?  Shocking!

[Marge_Innavera]

Both of them was actually living a falsehood because both of them was living in the closet and that's a form of lie itself and it's pretty much even when it comes to both of them being raked over the coals for it. They had their own individual reasons for being in the closet...but they still were in the closet living a lie and a falsehood.

But as fofol pointed out we have to remember the context in which our boys felt the need to lie. In a perfect it's highly doubtful they would have lied about anything. Not to their wives, not to their children, not to the society in which they lived in, and more importantly, not to themselves or too each other. Some times we're force to do things that we don't wish to do but we do it in order to survive. And that's true for both Jack and Ennis.

No argument there!

Everyone lies at times -- and anyone who tells you they haven't is telling at least their second one -- but the destructive effects of living a lie is at the heart of both the film and ss.