Did Jack Quit Ennis?

[janjo]

Dear Paul,

Actually they aren't because in the middle of writing this I was distracted by having to help Mr Janjo fix a power washer, so neglected to add:

Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved.

Your scales of evidence would be appreciated, Paul.

But hopefully you won't be disturbed halfway through.

[Desecra]

These are the definitions I have found for let be......."leave undisturbed", and laissez faire......... "refrain from interfering with......... leave things alone", the later which I feel I should not have introduced into this discussion as it is actually more applicable to economics, and therefore has little to do with this discussion, but which does seem to otherwise mean the same to me.
I don't understand really how Jack can decide to leave a memory of twenty years before alone, unless he has decided not to think about it again, which if it is that important to him is almost impossible to do.
This does seem to me to be stretching credulity, and to be an extremely obscure interpretation.

I'd see "laissez faire" as more of a philosophy (e.g. a laissez faire attitude to parenting).  I don't think Jack is thinking along the lines of "laissez faire".   I think the words really do just mean "let be".

I don't think it's so much Jack not thinking about it (although that might come into it), but stopping prodding it, wishing it for it, waiting for it - just leave it alone.   The last argument and the torquing back had shown that Ennis still had those difficulties, and that Jack was never going to be able to "get it right". 

What do you mean by "an extremely obscure interpretation?

[Desecra]

Look at this like a set of scales, Paul. On one side we have:

The brilliant charge
I miss you enough to whip babies
I wish I knew how to quit you
Let be, let be                                                   
The shirts                                                       Then this spring he's got another one......etc etc


The evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of "no quit."
If Jack didn't know how to quit for twenty years, how does one thought, that he has dwelled on for twenty years, suddenly change things for him?
He would like it to, but it doesn't.
It can't.

The other man he speaks of to his father is nothing much more than a dream, wishful thinking, and I strongly suspect would not have come to pass, even if Jack had lived.

The thing is, all the things you've listed on the NQ side are on the Q side as well.  (Remember, in the version where Jack quits, it's not because he doesn't love Ennis.  In fact, he probably loves Ennis more, if anything).   All the rest of the story fits in with Q.  It could also be made to fit in with NQ, apart from that one thing you've put on the Q side. 

That's the crux of it.  Unless there's something that contradicts that - that shows, for instance, that there wasn't a RN, or that Jack wasn't planning to bring him up, then we're left with Q.   Which means that Jack died believing he couldn't get it right, and Ennis knows it.

[janjo]

What do you mean by "an extremely obscure interpretation?

"Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved,"  "let be, let be," and "I wish I knew how to quit you" combined with the shirts seem to overwhelmingly be suggesting that Jack didn't  and couldn't quit.  The interpretation of understanding all of those features as Jack suddenly knowing how to quit, (How does this happen, where does he get the strength from?), seems rather strange, because apart from OMT's words, which are themselves quailfied, there seems no other evidence.

[Desecra]

This probably won't be very clearly expressed but I see Jack's disillusionment only starting to emerge during (as I call it) his monologue. Prior to that there's to an emerging discontent and restessness (his bitching about the cold, his wife, his son; his poking the flames, twisting the transistor radio dial until the batteries died), culminating in his "fuck-all has worked the way I want. Nothing never come to my hand the right way." The brilliant charge of sex-in-the-dirt acts as a temporary distraction, but the postponement of August brings his discontent once more to the surface.

I've said before that Ennis's "You got a better idea?" was the wrong question to ask (I wonder what would have happened had he stopped at "The trade-off was August?") because it lights the fuse which propels all of Jack's resentments to the surface, and leads remorselessly, eventually, to the DE, and his decision that the relationship is over.

The divorce really hasn't much to do with what happens at the meeting—his airplane's been shot out of the sky twice before, and he survived—but this time there's more than his relationship with Ennis churning away in his mind, it's the issue of his whole life. He's met someone who (he thinks) will do what Ennis won't, and that's the catalyst which, prompted by Ennis's question, reveals the artificiality of the Ennis/Jack relationship.

 I found it convincing that Proulx gave both the old man and his wife the same two words to describe something which no longer occurred. It didn't strike me at first (because I initially agreed with you that the old man was talking about something which had stopped some years before) until I realised that that didn't explain, for me, why Jack would not only bother to continue seeing Ennis, but why he'd taken ten years to find someone else.

It'd always been Jack's dream, I think, to live with another man on a "small spread," and I thought the likelihood of his finding that man immediately prior to his last meeting with Ennis (especially if he knew back in 1973 that Ennis wouldn't) to be rather remote. It's just too coincidental to be believeable.

But, if Jack only realised in May 1983 that Ennis wouldn't ever live with him, and that he'd already met someone who would (or could) live with him, the situation was less coincidental.
Oh my! What a tangled web that'd create, Des. 

What did keep Jack coming back?  Was it the belief that they'd live together one a these days, or was it the craving for what they'd felt in the DE?  You see, I think we're being told it was the latter.  

And that explains why during the last meeting Jack didn't appear to be planning to quit, and why he seemed to be pushing for more from Ennis if anything (telling him he missed him, challenging him about being difficult to see, asking to go to Mexico, etc.).   He knows that the RN will do what Ennis won't do, and will live with him - but he's still chasing after that DE and what they'd felt then.  For the hope of that, he'll give up living with the RN to see Ennis twice a year.

Coincidence?  There isn't one.  It was because Jack knew the RN would live with him that he sparked things off at the last meeting.  For the first time (judging from the conversation) he challenges Ennis.  He suggests Mexico.  He doesn't give up.   When Ennis asks if Jack's got a better idea, I'm sure Ennis isn't referring to the cow and calf operation.   It's Jack who decides to "go there".  (And I think that's probably because he knows he could do it with the RN if he wanted to, but has given that up for Ennis).  

[Desecra]

"Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved,"  "let be, let be," and "I wish I knew how to quit you" combined with the shirts seem to overwhelmingly be suggesting that Jack didn't  and couldn't quit.  The interpretation of understanding all of those features as Jack suddenly knowing how to quit, (How does this happen, where does he get the strength from?), seems rather strange, because apart from OMT's words, which are themselves quailfied, there seems no other evidence.

I don't think it's a question of strength, but maybe of understanding.  Jack doesn't understand that they didn't get much farther until after the last meeting and nothing ended, etc. 

I think that Jack would have liked to have felt the way about the RN as he did about Ennis (hence "I wish I knew how to quit you" and "nothing came to my hand the right way").  But he can't.   He still can't, even after he decides to bring the RN up.   I don't think that's what's the story is about (Jack choosing between the two of them). 

The shirts don't show that Jack quit or didn't quit.  They can't. 

Nothing ended and let be, lead into Jack quitting, rather than showing that he didn't. 

What other evidence are you looking for?  A letter from Texas?  A visit by Ennis to Texas?  I think there's enough there in the story.  Whatever state of mind Jack was in, it resulted in him telling his father he was bringing another one up. 

[janjo]

Thank you for all of this discussion, Des, I do now understand where you are coming from at least.
I think it still begs several questions however.
How do we know that Jack had suddenly decided that he had had enough and could finally quit, rather than that the situation was unchanged despite everything, and also, why did he tell Ennis "he missed him enough to whip babies" and yet still have the RN just waiting in the wings to replace him the moment things didn't go his way?
It is very troubling.

[Desecra]

Thank you for all of this discussion, Des, I do now understand where you are coming from at least.
I think it still begs several questions however.
How do we know that Jack had suddenly decided that he had had enough and could finally quit, rather than that the situation was unchanged despite everything, and also, why did he tell Ennis "he missed him enough to whip babies" and yet still have the RN just waiting in the wings to replace him the moment things didn't go his way?
It is very troubling.

I'm not sure whether he really does have an agenda when he tells Ennis he misses him.  I think he's just saying what he feels.  (There's so much unsaid).  If he does have an agenda, it's probably just trying to see what Ennis feels - if he's ready to move that little bit farther, and perhaps, subconsciously, looking for a repeat of the DE. 

I don't think that Jack ever thought of it as having the RN waiting in the wings as a replacement the moment things didn't go his way.   He didn't know how things were going to turn out at the last meeting.  It seems to me that he'd assumed they'd just carry on as they were, indefinitely.  (And so, I suppose he planned to just carry on sneaking around with the RN indefinitely).  And I don't see the argument as just "things not going his way".  It highlighted something that was fundamentally wrong with the relationship, something apparently insurmountable. 

How do we know Jack had enough?  Because of what he came to understand, and "let be", and then the plan to bring the other one up.   We know that there was change.  Jack thinks something new about the DE and their relationship.  He goes and says something new at LF.   The line about nothing ending, beginning or being resolved, doesn't mean that nothing at all in their lives ever could end, begin or be resolved in the future.  (Jack's life ends).     There are the clouds of things unsaid and unsayable, Ennis collapses, then somehow they torque things back (to what?  I think back to what they were before they started saying those things in the argument.  The things can't be unsaid, but they can avoid bringing them up again).  Saying those things, the argument, didn't begin, end or resolve anything.   

[Paul029]

Your scales of evidence would be appreciated, Paul.

I'm not sure that that'd be wise, Jess. I wouldn't want it end up like some sort of competition—the side with the most "points" becoming the "winner." And Proulx seems to have made the issue deliberately ambiguous, so it's even possible that the scales could balance, I suppose. Stating the obvious, the information we're given seems designed, at times, to defy straightforward analysis. But I'll do it if you really want me to...

Another thing is that "evidence" suggests that there's a definitive answer to be found in the text (which I don't think is the case), whereas "interpretation" of the text sounds, to me, more appropriate.  But perhaps I'm being pedantic...  

In the end, of course, it doesn't really matter whether Jack quit or not, but I've enjoyed the intellectual challenge of trying to "resolve" the issue to my own satisfaction.

Over to you...  

[janjo]

I like all of that, Paul. I agree that there is a degree of ambiguity. I remain firmly of the opinion that Jack didn't quit, because to me that is a lot of the point of the story, but I do understand better where you and Des are coming from, whiich is always a good thing.

[gnash]

maybe the real question is, did ennis quit jack? and if he did, perhaps that's what made it easer for jack to quit, or at least hold back.

the cold vacations, the trips happening more infrequently, the excuses of having to work, etc. all that adds up. and  it would get tiring, after a while, to keep driving all those miles for the same damn thing, especially if there were no signs that it was going to get better, or at least shape up into what you wanted from the relationship. it's hard to create your ideal reality, if part of that reality is a partner unwilling to share in the dream you have planned.

i'm sure ennis loved jack, but.... not enough. i don't think he would be able to love any man enough to give that other man what he truly deserved, unless they were in a prison cell together or otherwise stuck together in some situation where there was no way out. ennis lived for loopholes with jack, it was just too easy, all the time, to fall back on his "ain't gonna be like that" and then sit and suffer and make it miserable for everybody else.

he was probably a stewy, moody leo, or a scorpio with all the worst traits and his moon up his ass.

[fofol]

maybe the real question is, did Ennis quit jack? and if he did, perhaps that's what made it easer for jack to quit, or at least hold back.

the cold vacations, the trips happening more infrequently, the excuses of having to work, etc. all that adds up. and  it would get tiring, after a while, to keep driving all those miles for the same damn thing, especially if there were no signs that it was going to get better, or at least shape up into what you wanted from the relationship. it's hard to create your ideal reality, if part of that reality is a partner unwilling to share in the dream you have planned.

I'm sure Ennis loved jack, but.... not enough. i don't think he would be able to love any man enough to give that other man what he truly deserved, unless they were in a prison cell together or otherwise stuck together in some situation where there was no way out. Ennis lived for loopholes with jack, it was just too easy, all the time, to fall back on his "ain't gonna be like that" and then sit and suffer and make it miserable for everybody else.

he was probably a stewy, moody leo, or a scorpio with all the worst traits and his moon up his ass.

  What he truly deserved??  (Brace yourselves, here comes the heresy.)  Jack's a lying party boy, lying to Ennis about having sex with other men, right from the time Ennis brings the issue into the conversation.  Ennis may lie about his personal life where it doesn't affect Jack; Jack lies to keep Ennis from finding out who he is - someone who has not been rolling his own.  Which man betrays the other?  Ennis who is honest with Jack about his knowledge and feelings about their relationship, or Jack who finds ways to spend his money on his business trips?  The real meat of the story, however, isn't how they treat one another, but that it is that homophobia, drilled into these boys from childhood on, destroys their abilities to relate to one another in an openly loving way - the way they both feel about the other...

[gnash]

^^^ wow! awesome post! I have called jack a liar in the past and oh. my. god. did I get my head bit off...  


yep, jack was a pissant and a half, but he wasn't gonna miss out on life. jack even lied to ennis about joe, or at least he didn't say anything to ennis about joe knowing that they were stemming the rose. of course it was probably to protect ennis, or himself. jack mighta been a dumbass, but he wasn't stupid.  

if ennis knew that joe was aware about the queer sex, I bet he would have flipped out right there in the motel room and there would have been a whole new set of blood stained shirts, or socks.  

sadly, gay men grow up lying... at least if you're in the closet. I was, for the most part, up until college. but in the sixties, i'm sure it was even more difficult to be open... the early sixties, at least, and esp. in rural areas. no wonder jack lied, or got into the habit of lying so easily. he knew what to do to get by and to get what he wanted. jimbo wasn't his only attempted trick.

I missed out on the hippie movement in the sixties, and wonder how easy it was for gay hippies during that era of free love. moving from colorado to SF in the 80's made my coming out experience a snap,,, but wyoming? hippie free, I'm sure. musta been tough to take a chance on rodeo clowns that you thought were hot. even today it isn't so lenient, you risk your life being open and all that.. so I can't blame jack for lying, or ennis for lying.

but I can blame ennis for marrying alma. that he could have avoided if he wasn't so... thick headed, I guess. jack , on the other hand, married lureen for the cash, and because she was attractive. at least that is the impression I got. he found a rich girl with money, and good looks to match. but it was also outright lying, or in this case, conniving. (unless you think jack was straight, and really not gay.)

sham marriages. beards. sigh.. so many closeted gays did it back then. so was it really that bad? or was it simply a survival tactic?

many men still do it, of course. heck, I still find myself lying sometimes in order to protect myself... not really denying that I am gay, but not offering the information up. not holding hands in public, like at the airport, not kissing my partner goodbye. I'll avoid it to be safe, or not to cause a scene. I'll do to to be polite.

thank goodness people don't stare too much when two guys hug. as long as the hug doesn't last, or you don't hug and at the same time look deep into the other guy's eyes. meh. not a fan of PDA anyway. and I don't think that's what jack expected of ennis, either. but yeah... he did deserve more than a hello/ goodbye twice a year, and increasingly colder trips as the years progressed.

ennis did hug jack, "in public", at least once, right? for a little while at least: after the divorce and and in front of his girls. oddly, he seemed less worried about that than the white truck driving by.

poor jack! overjoyed to hear about the divorce, only to be turned away after a hope filled drive. what a rejection that was, huh? if jack did consider quitting ennis, he probably thought about it long and hard on his Mexico- bound trip back.

[janjo]

I really can't see what is so objectionable about two people of the same sex holding hands, or hugging, or kissing for that matter. I don't want to see people, either heterosexual or homosexual practically having sex in the street, but holding hands.................. I don't know what's wrong with some people.

[Desecra]

I wouldn't mind seeing people having sex in the street now and then!    But, seriously, I like to see public affection.

In Ennis's case, though, I think he seriously thought they would get killed if they kissed in the wrong place, and he probably wasn't far off the mark.  I suppose back then, very, very little was seen in the media.   Even people who were known to be gay, or suspected to be gay, did not kiss in public, and their partners were known by euphimisms (friend, manager, protege, etc.).    I don't suppose Rich and Earl did anything much in public - living together was enough. 

My feeling is still that what they did up there was limited enough, that Ennis didn't flip out about Joe seeing them, even when Jack told him about the binoculars (and that's why he didn't bother about being seen at the time).  That's just the short story, though.  I think in both, though, they don't hug at the end of the summer.