Did Jack Quit Ennis?

[janjo]

Surely if "Let be, let be" means "leave alone", that is what it means whatever the context, and despite OMT's words we are supposed to have that meaning backed up ultimately by Ennis finding the shirts?
I would like to see a different definition of thoose words before I could agree that they do mean "giving up hope."
Otherwise we are changing the meaning of phrases in the English language to fit our own theories, aren't we?

[Paul029]

If he misunderstood the reason for the call, what do you think Ennis thought was the "understood" reason? I'd be interested to get your opinion about that.

We kind of get Jack's version in that we know he misunderstood and drove all that way.  We know how he reacted to the news that Ennis was divorced.  
Ennis never does divulge the reason.  We know he felt short-changed, and perhaps just wanted to tell his "friend".  Unfortunately, he was at a vulnerable point, and Jack got the wrong message.  
I'd love to know what exactly was said.  

Ditto.

[Paul029]

I'm not disputing that he was affected by Ennis's changed approach, and no doubt Ennis himself was also rather surprised by his own reaction, but he also stated, and elaborated upon, his reasons for not living together in the motel that same night. Considering how explicitly detailed he is about his primary objections his reference to his married life almost seems like an afterthought.

It is the first reason he gives, though.   We know it's not so important, but Jack doesn't, at that point.  Like I say, I'm not strongly attached to his idea, but it does feel right to me.   If Jack hadn't believed that Ennis wasn't going to live with him, he wouldn't have talked about him at LF and if he hadn't believed the marriage and life in Wyoming was the major obstacle, he wouldn't have misunderstood when Ennis phoned.

It's possible, though, that while Jack realised that Ennis wouldn't live with him after the divorce, he thought he would do so at some other future time. Ennis's marriage was only one of the obstacles to be overcome if they were to live together. Once that was out of the way the others came into play (perhaps previously not as obvious to Jack, or not fully considered, despite Ennis's detailed references at the reunion). So, once Jack realised that he'd misread Ennis's marriage as the primary obstacle to their living together, he understood that the others were of greater importance than he'd thought. It wasn't his marriage which was stopping Ennis, after all; it was something else, something deeper, and harder to overcome, as far as Jack was concerned. (He wasn't to know until May 1983, of course, that he'd never succeed in changing Ennis's mind.) But I don't think he gave up hope after the divorce—after all, he did continue to talk to his parents about bringing Ennis up to LF, didn't he?

[Paul029]

We just don't know what Jack made of the phone call. I can't agree with you that he relinquished his idea of living together after the divorce. The text indicates, to me, that this just isn't so.

We're not told directly, at that point, but when Jack speaks of it later, it seems to be an idea he'd given up on.  "I did once",  "we could have had a real good life", "you wouldn't do it", "all we got is Brokeback Mountain",  "it's all we got".  He already knows that Ennis won't live with him.  It's not a plea to live together.   He seems to have already accepted that Brokeback is all they've got.  

I interpret this differently, Des. What Jack's saying is that in the past he had an idea which Ennis wouldn't agree to, and that, had Ennis agreed, they could have had a good life together; consequently, all that's left (now) is BBM.
He's coming to a conclusion about what was proposed sixteen years earlier (a sweet life), why it was that it didn't eventuate (Ennis wouldn't do it) and the subsequent (current) result (all we got now is Brokeback Mountain).

But he doesn't say that Ennis didn't accept the idea, he says that he wouldn't accept it. It's a subtle, but important, difference; and Jack finally, at the time that he says it, begins to give up on the idea of their ever having a sweet life together.
Had he said Ennis didn't accept it, it would have raised the possibility of Ennis eventually changing his mind; but he now understands that that may never eventuate.

And reasonably, why would he think Ennis was going to live with him, if he wouldn't do it after the divorce?

He continued to think that Ennis would live with him "one a these days" because he didn't give up hope. It's not until the May meeting that that hope finally starts to die, I think.

His mother says "Jack used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas..." Considering the narrative context (Jack is dead) she's telling Ennis what Jack did every year while he was alive. The reason he stopped coming home every year (to help out) was because he died.  Jack was still married and living in Texas while he was visiting LF annually, and the only thing that'd changed was that he was dead; her "used a" refers to a recent event, Jack's death.

The old man then tells Ennis that "Jack used a say Ennis Del Mar... I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days..." He's similarly referring to a recent event (rather than something which occurred years ago, such as 1973); he's talking about what happened "this spring"—that Jack no longer talked about Ennis. In other words, right up until his previous visit (the year before, 1982), Jack talked about bringing Ennis Del Mar up to LF. But on his next visit he said, instead, that he'd bring up "some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas." Jack didn't give up on the idea of living with Ennis after his divorce, and he continued to talk about it to his parents until his second to last annual visit.

[Paul029]

I agree with the rest of the quote, except that I feel "Let be, let be" is about more than Jack simply giving up on seeking Ennis's approval.
It's about everything to do with Ennis, and all of Jack's hopes.

Well, "approval" is a sort of shorthand, but it's the closest one-word thing I can think of.  It's no little thing, though.
~snip~ I think that usually, in a loving relationship, one thing you can be certain of (and need to be certain of, I think) is your partner's approval.  Ennis can't give that, once he realises that they are lovers and that Jack is probably gay.   I don't think he withholds it.  I think it just doesn't feel right for him.  Jack can't do anything because he can't change the way he is.  Together, they can't get much farther.

I just don't think living together comes into it at that point.   It's almost a side issue.  I do believe that if Jack thought they could have got farther, he'd probably have continued.   And getting farther could have been as little as Ennis agreeing to go to Mexico next time.

That's a good point, and it fits with what he's just said to, and about, Ennis in his monologue. He's giving up on the dream of a sweet life.
Now his wishing he knew how to quit Ennis seems almost like "a last gasp" as his dream starts fading, rather than an assertion that he wants his hopes to continue.
The torquing leads to his "Let be, let." and it's over. It's a gradual and inexorable process of disillusionment.
And then he drives to LF to tell his parents that it will no longer be EDM who he'll be "bringing up."

[Desecra]

Surely if "Let be, let be" means "leave alone", that is what it means whatever the context, and despite OMT's words we are supposed to have that meaning backed up ultimately by Ennis finding the shirts?
I would like to see a different definition of thoose words before I could agree that they do mean "giving up hope."
Otherwise we are changing the meaning of phrases in the English language to fit our own theories, aren't we?

I'm not.  I didn't say that "let be" means "give up hope".  I also don't think it means "laissez faire" (your suggestion).   I did suggest that it meant leaving something alone - that's similar to letting something be.  If you don't like that definition, that's fine - just leave the words at "let be".   We know what they mean, I think.   The question is just - what is it that Jack is deciding to let be? 

You said you felt that "let be" contradicted the words at LF.  But that's because you saw it as meaning that Jack had decided not to make any life altering decisions.  But "let be" itself, is vague, and I think we have to find out what Jack was letting be from the context. 

If you left out the words about the RN, and Jack had gone straight from "let be" to the shirts, then I'd kind of agree - you'd expect his decision to "let be" to lead to whatever it was he did with the shirts.   But he doesn't do anything with the shirts (they're stiff).   What he does is talk about bringing the RN up, so you'd expect his decision to let be to lead to that. 

They have that big argument about Jack being gay - Jack finally starts to say how he feels, Ennis is apparently unmoveable, and they end up almost back where they started. 
When Jack remembers the DE, he remembers that Ennis wouldn't see or feel him (ultimately, that Ennis couldn't deal with what he felt for a man) and finally realises that maybe they haven't got much farther than that (even that last argument didn't get them anywhere).
He decides to let be.
It may not be clear what he decides to let be, but he goes on to tell his father that he's bringing another man up. 

I'm just saying that whatever he decides to let be, I think it has to fit into that chain.  He can't have decided that nothing must change, or that he shouldn't make decisions, because there he is, changing things and making decisions up at LF. 

I think he finally realises that the DE isn't going to happen again, and that's what he gives up on (decides to let be) - hoping and yearning for it (and what it represents).   The reason I think it's the DE is because that's what Jack has just been thinking about.

[Desecra]

It's possible, though, that while Jack realised that Ennis wouldn't live with him after the divorce, he thought he would do so at some other future time. Ennis's marriage was only one of the obstacles to be overcome if they were to live together. Once that was out of the way the others came into play (perhaps previously not as obvious to Jack, or not fully considered, despite Ennis's detailed references at the reunion). So, once Jack realised that he'd misread Ennis's marriage as the primary obstacle to their living together, he understood that the others were of greater importance than he'd thought. It wasn't his marriage which was stopping Ennis, after all; it was something else, something deeper, and harder to overcome, as far as Jack was concerned. (He wasn't to know until May 1983, of course, that he'd never succeed in changing Ennis's mind.) But I don't think he gave up hope after the divorce—after all, he did continue to talk to his parents about bringing Ennis up to LF, didn't he?

Yes, it is possible.  It's what I thought was probably the case for a long time.  But "I did once" was one of those lines that always niggled at me, and I've found from experience that AP's niggly little lines are meant to niggle (I believe ).   Going just on gut feeling, does "I did once" sound like Jack is planning to live with Ennis (and was still talking to his father about it last time he was at LF), or that he gave up hope some time ago?  If it's the latter, I think there were three points that we're told about when Jack could have given up hope - at the reunion, at the divorce, or during that last meeting that we're "watching".   It can't be the reunion, or he wouldn't have talked to his father.   There's nothing outstanding in the last meeting that would tell Jack that Ennis wouldn't live with him.  But the divorce - that's a fairly clear message, isn't it? 

We don't know that Jack was talking about Ennis after the divorce.  His father says that Jack used to talk about Ennis del Mar.  It looks like he talked about him over a period of time (years), but the last time could have been last year, or years ago. 

[Desecra]

We're not told directly, at that point, but when Jack speaks of it later, it seems to be an idea he'd given up on.  "I did once",  "we could have had a real good life", "you wouldn't do it", "all we got is Brokeback Mountain",  "it's all we got".  He already knows that Ennis won't live with him.  It's not a plea to live together.   He seems to have already accepted that Brokeback is all they've got.  
I interpret this differently, Des. What Jack's saying is that in the past he had an idea which Ennis wouldn't agree to, and that, had Ennis agreed, they could have had a good life together; consequently, all that's left (now) is BBM.
He's coming to a conclusion about what was proposed sixteen years earlier (a sweet life), why it was that it didn't eventuate (Ennis wouldn't do it) and the subsequent (current) result (all we got now is Brokeback Mountain).

But he doesn't say that Ennis didn't accept the idea, he says that he wouldn't accept it. It's a subtle, but important, difference; and Jack finally, at the time that he says it, begins to give up on the idea of their ever having a sweet life together.
Had he said Ennis didn't accept it, it would have raised the possibility of Ennis eventually changing his mind; but he now understands that that may never eventuate.

But what has Ennis done or said that is substantially different - that would swing Jack from having been sure Ennis was going to come up some time, to completely giving up on the idea?   As I've said, I've got no big disagreement with this, but I don't think there's anything strong enough at the last meeting (up to that point) that can be pinpointed as causing a change of heart.   Ennis seems to be carrying on much as he's ever done.   The difficulties in seeing Ennis were nothing new.   (The biggest thing is probably Ennis's refusal to go to Mexico or somewhere warmer - Jack has probably never asked before, so Ennis hasn't refused him before.  But I feel that's more about Ennis's acceptance of Jack, rather than living together.  LF isn't any warmer, after all).  

The divorce, on the other hand, is strong enough.  

He continued to think that Ennis would live with him "one a these days" because he didn't give up hope. It's not until the May meeting that that hope finally starts to die, I think.

His mother says "Jack used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas..." Considering the narrative context (Jack is dead) she's telling Ennis what Jack did every year while he was alive. The reason he stopped coming home every year (to help out) was because he died.  Jack was still married and living in Texas while he was visiting LF annually, and the only thing that'd changed was that he was dead; her "used a" refers to a recent event, Jack's death.

The old man then tells Ennis that "Jack used a say Ennis Del Mar... I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days..." He's similarly referring to a recent event (rather than something which occurred years ago, such as 1973); he's talking about what happened "this spring"—that Jack no longer talked about Ennis. In other words, right up until his previous visit (the year before, 1982), Jack talked about bringing Ennis Del Mar up to LF. But on his next visit he said, instead, that he'd bring up "some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas." Jack didn't give up on the idea of living with Ennis after his divorce, and he continued to talk about it to his parents until his second to last annual visit.

"Used a" doesn't give much of a clue over the timing - it just seems to show that Jack made a habit of talking about Ennis (as opposed to talking about the RN once).    It fits just as well with Jack talking about Ennis between the reunion and the divorce as over the last 16 years.  

"Used a" meaning that Jack's habit was only curtailed by his death - well, that would mean that he was bringing another one up as well as Ennis .   ... then this spring, he's got another one coming up (in addition) ....  I'm kidding .

[janjo]

I'm not.  I didn't say that "let be" means "give up hope".  I also don't think it means "laissez faire" (your suggestion).   I did suggest that it meant leaving something alone - that's similar to letting something be.  If you don't like that definition, that's fine - just leave the words at "let be".   We know what they mean, I think.   The question is just - what is it that Jack is deciding to let be? 

You said you felt that "let be" contradicted the words at LF.  But that's because you saw it as meaning that Jack had decided not to make any life altering decisions.  But "let be" itself, is vague, and I think we have to find out what Jack was letting be from the context. 

If you left out the words about the RN, and Jack had gone straight from "let be" to the shirts, then I'd kind of agree - you'd expect his decision to "let be" to lead to whatever it was he did with the shirts.   But he doesn't do anything with the shirts (they're stiff).   What he does is talk about bringing the RN up, so you'd expect his decision to let be to lead to that. 

They have that big argument about Jack being gay - Jack finally starts to say how he feels, Ennis is apparently unmoveable, and they end up almost back where they started. 
When Jack remembers the DE, he remembers that Ennis wouldn't see or feel him (ultimately, that Ennis couldn't deal with what he felt for a man) and finally realises that maybe they haven't got much farther than that (even that last argument didn't get them anywhere).
He decides to let be.
It may not be clear what he decides to let be, but he goes on to tell his father that he's bringing another man up. 

I'm just saying that whatever he decides to let be, I think it has to fit into that chain.  He can't have decided that nothing must change, or that he shouldn't make decisions, because there he is, changing things and making decisions up at LF. 

I think he finally realises that the DE isn't going to happen again, and that's what he gives up on (decides to let be) - hoping and yearning for it (and what it represents).   The reason I think it's the DE is because that's what Jack has just been thinking about.

These are the definitions I have found for let be......."leave undisturbed", and laissez faire......... "refrain from interfering with......... leave things alone", the later which I feel I should not have introduced into this discussion as it is actually more applicable to economics, and therefore has little to do with this discussion, but which does seem to otherwise mean the same to me.
I don't understand really how Jack can decide to leave a memory of twenty years before alone, unless he has decided not to think about it again, which if it is that important to him is almost impossible to do.
This does seem to me to be stretching credulity, and to be an extremely obscure interpretation.

[janjo]

We're not told directly, at that point, but when Jack speaks of it later, it seems to be an idea he'd given up on.  "I did once",  "we could have had a real good life", "you wouldn't do it", "all we got is Brokeback Mountain",  "it's all we got".  He already knows that Ennis won't live with him.  It's not a plea to live together.   He seems to have already accepted that Brokeback is all they've got.  
I interpret this differently, Des. What Jack's saying is that in the past he had an idea which Ennis wouldn't agree to, and that, had Ennis agreed, they could have had a good life together; consequently, all that's left (now) is BBM.
He's coming to a conclusion about what was proposed sixteen years earlier (a sweet life), why it was that it didn't eventuate (Ennis wouldn't do it) and the subsequent (current) result (all we got now is Brokeback Mountain).

But he doesn't say that Ennis didn't accept the idea, he says that he wouldn't accept it. It's a subtle, but important, difference; and Jack finally, at the time that he says it, begins to give up on the idea of their ever having a sweet life together.
Had he said Ennis didn't accept it, it would have raised the possibility of Ennis eventually changing his mind; but he now understands that that may never eventuate.
He continued to think that Ennis would live with him "one a these days" because he didn't give up hope. It's not until the May meeting that that hope finally starts to die, I think.

His mother says "Jack used a come home every year, even after he was married and down in Texas..." Considering the narrative context (Jack is dead) she's telling Ennis what Jack did every year while he was alive. The reason he stopped coming home every year (to help out) was because he died.  Jack was still married and living in Texas while he was visiting LF annually, and the only thing that'd changed was that he was dead; her "used a" refers to a recent event, Jack's death.

The old man then tells Ennis that "Jack used a say Ennis Del Mar... I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days..." He's similarly referring to a recent event (rather than something which occurred years ago, such as 1973); he's talking about what happened "this spring"—that Jack no longer talked about Ennis. In other words, right up until his previous visit (the year before, 1982), Jack talked about bringing Ennis Del Mar up to LF. But on his next visit he said, instead, that he'd bring up "some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas." Jack didn't give up on the idea of living with Ennis after his divorce, and he continued to talk about it to his parents until his second to last annual visit.

I like this interpretation of "used to say" a lot,Paul.

[Paul029]

But what has Ennis done or said that is substantially different - that would swing Jack from having been sure Ennis was going to come up some time, to completely giving up on the idea?   As I've said, I've got no big disagreement with this, but I don't think there's anything strong enough at the last meeting (up to that point) that can be pinpointed as causing a change of heart.   Ennis seems to be carrying on much as he's ever done.   The difficulties in seeing Ennis were nothing new.   (The biggest thing is probably Ennis's refusal to go to Mexico or somewhere warmer - Jack has probably never asked before, so Ennis hasn't refused him before.  But I feel that's more about Ennis's acceptance of Jack, rather than living together.  LF isn't any warmer, after all).  

The divorce, on the other hand, is strong enough.  

This probably won't be very clearly expressed but I see Jack's disillusionment only starting to emerge during (as I call it) his monologue. Prior to that there's to an emerging discontent and restessness (his bitching about the cold, his wife, his son; his poking the flames, twisting the transistor radio dial until the batteries died), culminating in his "fuck-all has worked the way I want. Nothing never come to my hand the right way." The brilliant charge of sex-in-the-dirt acts as a temporary distraction, but the postponement of August brings his discontent once more to the surface.

I've said before that Ennis's "You got a better idea?" was the wrong question to ask (I wonder what would have happened had he stopped at "The trade-off was August?") because it lights the fuse which propels all of Jack's resentments to the surface, and leads remorselessly, eventually, to the DE, and his decision that the relationship is over.

The divorce really hasn't much to do with what happens at the meeting—his airplane's been shot out of the sky twice before, and he survived—but this time there's more than his relationship with Ennis churning away in his mind, it's the issue of his whole life. He's met someone who (he thinks) will do what Ennis won't, and that's the catalyst which, prompted by Ennis's question, reveals the artificiality of the Ennis/Jack relationship.

"Used a" doesn't give much of a clue over the timing - it just seems to show that Jack made a habit of talking about Ennis (as opposed to talking about the RN once).    It fits just as well with Jack talking about Ennis between the reunion and the divorce as over the last 16 years.

 I found it convincing that Proulx gave both the old man and his wife the same two words to describe something which no longer occurred. It didn't strike me at first (because I initially agreed with you that the old man was talking about something which had stopped some years before) until I realised that that didn't explain, for me, why Jack would not only bother to continue seeing Ennis, but why he'd taken ten years to find someone else.

It'd always been Jack's dream, I think, to live with another man on a "small spread," and I thought the likelihood of his finding that man immediately prior to his last meeting with Ennis (especially if he knew back in 1973 that Ennis wouldn't) to be rather remote. It's just too coincidental to be believeable.

But, if Jack only realised in May 1983 that Ennis wouldn't ever live with him, and that he'd already met someone who would (or could) live with him, the situation was less coincidental.

"Used a" meaning that Jack's habit was only curtailed by his death - well, that would mean that he was bringing another one up as well as Ennis .   ... then this spring, he's got another one coming up (in addition) ....  I'm kidding .

Oh my! What a tangled web that'd create, Des. 

[Paul029]

I like this interpretation of "used to say" a lot, Paul.

Thank you, Jess.    

What got me thinking about it (only recently) was that Proulx gave Jack's parents the same two words.
A small thing perhaps, but from little things...  

[Paul029]

Surely if "Let be, let be" means "leave alone", that is what it means whatever the context, and despite OMT's words we are supposed to have that meaning backed up ultimately by Ennis finding the shirts?
I would like to see a different definition of thoose words before I could agree that they do mean "giving up hope."
Otherwise we are changing the meaning of phrases in the English language to fit our own theories, aren't we?

While this was addressed to Desecra, may I explain my interpretation?
I look at as meaning as "Let (it) be," in the sense that the past is the past. Leave it intact. Valued.
From that I moved to Jack's (implied) thoughts about his future, one disconnected from the past, which occur in the text gap between Jack's DE and Ennis's receipt of the Deceased postcard.  

(There's also a suggestion, regarding the past, of "Don't touch," which could also, literally, refer to the stiffened shirts, retained for years and never discarded.)

Is there also, perhaps, a "religious" tone to Proulx's words?
They seem to have an almost a chant-like quality: "Let be, let be."

[janjo]

Look at this like a set of scales, Paul. On one side we have:

The brilliant charge
I miss you enough to whip babies
I wish I knew how to quit you
Let be, let be                                                   
The shirts                                                       Then this spring he's got another one......etc etc


The evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of "no quit."
If Jack didn't know how to quit for twenty years, how does one thought, that he has dwelled on for twenty years, suddenly change things for him?
He would like it to, but it doesn't.
It can't.

The other man he speaks of to his father is nothing much more than a dream, wishful thinking, and I strongly suspect would not have come to pass, even if Jack had lived.

[Paul029]

Look at this like a set of scales, Paul. On one side we have:

The brilliant charge
I miss you enough to whip babies
I wish I knew how to quit you
Let be, let be                                                  
The shirts                                                       Then this spring he's got another one......etc etc


The evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of "no quit."
If Jack didn't know how to quit for twenty years, how does one thought, that he has dwelled on for twenty years, suddenly change things for him?
He would like it to, but it doesn't.
It can't.

Your scales are weighted, dear Jess.  

It's interesting, also, that your "overwhelming" weights are on the "side sinistre."  
Are we moving into S&I again?

The other man he speaks of to his father is nothing much more than a dream, wishful thinking, and I strongly suspect would not have come to pass, even if Jack had lived.

Dreams have their own reality, for the dreamer—and possibly more so, in death.