Did Jack Quit Ennis?

[Paul029]

How can we be sure that Jack "realises it's over" when we are told that "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" was the status, and that "somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been?"

Because the status quo is changed, permanently and irreparably, when an internal structure is fractured. Proulx was clear about this when she wrote, in reference to the structure of wire, "they torqued things almost to where they had been." I do believe I've made this point before, and in far greater detail.

That, which seems quite unequivocal to me, together with two other facts, a) that the shirts are still hanging in the closet, and b) that the ranch neighbour is not even given a name, he is so unimportant, does offer an enormous amount of evidence that Jack doesn't realise anything of the kind.

a) The stiffened shirts would be there whether he quit or not.
b) By that reasoning Ennis's mother and father, as well as Mrs Twist, are similarly unimportant, and Linda Higgins becomes a major character.

Your mention of "a fair amount of evidence" raises an interesting point. I was presenting my impartial thoughts, without any predetermined opinion, on the Quit issue.
To do so I used Proulx's text to arrive to my conclusion about the topic. I believe my findings, presented in a number of posts, also constitute "a fair amount of evidence" which supports that conclusion. You may disagree that it has any merit, but that's the way it is.  

He still wishes he knew how to quit, probably he wishes even harder, but with this evidence the quit theory just does not add up, at least for me.

He doesn't still wish it, in my opinion. As the statement precedes not only the fracturing and Jack's subsequent DE thoughts, but also what he tells his parents upon his return to LF, it no longer applies. It's true at the time he says it, but that's that.

[fofol]

I don't think he does realise it's over at that point.   It's not until the end of the DE thoughts that he understands why their relationship is impossible.  

The shirts hanging in the closet have loads of meaning, but they'd be there whatever Jack had decided.

The RN having a name wouldn't change the story (as I've said, he's not a character we or Ennis "know", so his name wouldn't be useful information - we couldn't think "Oh, that guy!"  And there's no reason for OMT to tell Ennis).  His importance is not to do with his name, but his importance to the story - that he's included in Jack's "last words".

  But, Des, Jack experience remembering the DE makes him realize that Ennis has loved him all along.  The DE is that charmed and sexless embrace that lets Jack know that he's been wrong all this time - Ennis does love him, contrary to their original "I'm not no queer; me neither" agreement that takes place right after FNIT.

  It is unsafe to assume that the shirts would be there whatever Jack 'decided.'  Jack is an emotional child who lets things build up and build up until he blows up and when he blows up, he then throws out the baby with the bathwater - if he were hurt enough and angry enough with Ennis to be that sure that there was no love left there, he would have gotten rid of the shirts, no purpose in keeping them.  Jack is not a hateful person, but he does blow up from time to time: telling LD, sit down you old bastard, for example.

   Any 'RN' is not included in Jack's last words, if only because we don't know what his last words are.  OMT tells Ennis that Jack talked about a RN coming up, but we have to remember that OMT is nasty-tempered and mean, believes he has a reason to really dislike Ennis, and he knows all about Brokeback Mountain.  Plus, Jack still is dealing with his own realization that he's not going to get Ennis to live with him, but that they love each other, so he's frustrated when he has to explain that Ennis won't be coming to the ranch.  So how can we think he's telling the truth?  

[janjo]

Because the status quo is changed, permanently and irreparably, when an internal structure is fractured. Proulx was clear about this when she wrote, in reference to the structure of wire, "they torqued things almost to where they had been." I do believe I've made this point before, and in far greater detail.
a) The stiffened shirts would be there whether he quit or not.
b) By that reasoning Ennis's mother and father, as well as Mrs Twist, are similarly unimportant, and Linda Higgins becomes a major character.

Your mention of "a fair amount of evidence" raises an interesting point. I was presenting my impartial thoughts, without any predetermined opinion, on the Quit issue.
To do so I used Proulx's text to arrive to my conclusion about the topic. I believe my findings, presented in a number of posts, also constitute "a fair amount of evidence" which supports that conclusion. You may disagree that it has any merit, but that's the way it is.  
He doesn't still wish it, in my opinion. As the statement precedes not only the fracturing and Jack's subsequent DE thoughts, but also what he tells his parents upon his return to LF, it no longer applies. It's true at the time he says it, but that's that.

Paul, firstly I would like to put on record that although I disagree with you about this, I value your insghts greatly, and I am finding your postings very thought provoking.

I have to say that your reading of the coathanger metaphor is somewhat different to mine. I would have thought that if Jack and Ennis were washed up, finished, moved on etc, a broken coffee pot, or mug, would have been a better example.
Whilst a bent coathanger will never be quite the same again, it could still be made to look and function in the same way.
I see no point in bending it back otherwise, even if it has lost a little of its internal strength.
So I see Jack as still not knowing how to quit, because the coathanger is bent out of shape, but is definitely not fractured.

[janjo]

  There is one thing here that may have yet to enter into too many consciousnesses: fooling around with a woman doesn't count.  Women are used for cover, but a woman, no matter how much the gay man likes her, respects her, etc., is not someone he'd give his heart to - homosexuals give their hearts to people of the same sex.  BTW, this is why 'homosexual' just won't do as a label for homosexuals - for most of us, our relationships are, like heterosexuals, about so much more than just sex.  So, it is very different that both boys are married to women and very different indeed if Jack were actually fooling around with another man - much more threatening than if he were fooling around with somebody's wife.

   And part two: "So now he knew it was the tire iron" doesn't necessarily mean that Ennis believed the story: it can also mean is that  if Jack was telling his father about a ranch neighbor, it must have been the ranch neighbor, not the ranch neighbor's wife as he told Ennis he was fooling around with.  Anybody like Ennis, who saw the ptoential of hidden murderers everywhere when it came to men loving one another, would put two and two together and come up with four: Ennis is underexposed and afraid to live his own life, but he's not stupid.

In reply to the bolded above. How does good, kind, loving, normal, human being grab you!

[fofol]

In reply to the bolded above. How does good, kind, loving, normal, human being grab you!

    !!!!   That's EXACTLY who I like to be grabbed by    !!!!   (Honest, intelligent, and creative can't hurt either...)

[Desecra]

He now knows that Jack was reckless enough to see other men down in Texas in such a way that even his parents have heard of it. It is a very different situation from Ennis' suspicions that he really doesn't want to think about.

But his parents didn't just happen to hear of it.  Jack told them that he was bringing a guy up and they were going to build a cabin and sort the ranch out.  (He didn't tell them that he was dating men - I think this must have been the first time he mentioned any lover other than Ennis).   Ennis already knows that Jack is seeing other men, including a rancher in Texas.    The part that he didn't know was that Jack was planning to bring the guy up and build a cabin, etc.

Ennis "knows" it's the tire iron (i.e., he believes the story).  Then he thinks about the toilet scene, about Jack being different and not able to get it right (i.e. he understands why Jack would be bringing another guy up). 

[Desecra]

Sorry, but sez who?

I can't read the DE thoughts as saying that it was at that point that Jack decided to quit Ennis.

It says, "Let be, let be,"

Not, at that point, Jack decided to quit Ennis and make a new life for himself.

There is an awful lot of supposition, with no supporting text, if we are to believe this.

I didn't say that that was when Jack decided to quit for a new life, but when he realised the relationship was impossible - let be.   There is supporting text, if you look at the content of the last argument, the torquing back, Jack's thoughts about the DE and then what he says at LF. 

[Desecra]

  There is one thing here that may have yet to enter into too many consciousnesses: fooling around with a woman doesn't count.  Women are used for cover, but a woman, no matter how much the gay man likes her, respects her, etc., is not someone he'd give his heart to - homosexuals give their hearts to people of the same sex.  BTW, this is why 'homosexual' just won't do as a label for homosexuals - for most of us, our relationships are, like heterosexuals, about so much more than just sex.  So, it is very different that both boys are married to women and very different indeed if Jack were actually fooling around with another man - much more threatening than if he were fooling around with somebody's wife.

   And part two: "So now he knew it was the tire iron" doesn't necessarily mean that Ennis believed the story: it can also mean is that  if Jack was telling his father about a ranch neighbor, it must have been the ranch neighbor, not the ranch neighbor's wife as he told Ennis he was fooling around with.  Anybody like Ennis, who saw the ptoential of hidden murderers everywhere when it came to men loving one another, would put two and two together and come up with four: Ennis is underexposed and afraid to live his own life, but he's not stupid.

I don't think Ennis is stupid, and I don't think he ever really believed that Jack was fooling around with women.  What was said at the last meeting was no news - he'd known all along that Jack was gay and seeing men, not women.

[Desecra]

 But, Des, Jack experience remembering the DE makes him realize that Ennis has loved him all along.  The DE is that charmed and sexless embrace that lets Jack know that he's been wrong all this time - Ennis does love him, contrary to their original "I'm not no queer; me neither" agreement that takes place right after FNIT.

  It is unsafe to assume that the shirts would be there whatever Jack 'decided.'  Jack is an emotional child who lets things build up and build up until he blows up and when he blows up, he then throws out the baby with the bathwater - if he were hurt enough and angry enough with Ennis to be that sure that there was no love left there, he would have gotten rid of the shirts, no purpose in keeping them.  Jack is not a hateful person, but he does blow up from time to time: telling LD, sit down you old bastard, for example.

   Any 'RN' is not included in Jack's last words, if only because we don't know what his last words are.  OMT tells Ennis that Jack talked about a RN coming up, but we have to remember that OMT is nasty-tempered and mean, believes he has a reason to really dislike Ennis, and he knows all about Brokeback Mountain.  Plus, Jack still is dealing with his own realization that he's not going to get Ennis to live with him, but that they love each other, so he's frustrated when he has to explain that Ennis won't be coming to the ranch.  So how can we think he's telling the truth?  

I think Jack has always remembered the DE, and always craved it.  What's different after the last argument is that he then understands something about the relationship - that they hadn't got much farther than Ennis not wanting to see or feel him. 

The "last words" we have are the ones about the RN.   (I'm not suggesting Jack didn't speak after that point!).  I think it looks as if he's telling the truth.  As I've said before, the only thing we've seen him lying about is his sexuality, and we're told about that.  (He's even stopped lying about that, by the time he's at LF).   He'd also mentioned a rancher's wife, so it does look as if the RN really existed.    There's nothing to tell us he's lying (or that his father's lying).   Strong emotions tend to make people blurt out the truth, rather than tell lies (as we see during other scenes in the story). 

I don't know if matters, but I'm just talking about the short story, and they don't have that conversation after the FNIT (they do have a similar conversation when they're having sex, at some unspecified point, but it's not an agreement to continue). 

[janjo]

I don't think Ennis is stupid, and I don't think he ever really believed that Jack was fooling around with women.  What was said at the last meeting was no news - he'd known all along that Jack was gay and men, not women.

Actually that point of view brings the reliability of the women that Jack and Ennis talked about at the camp fire even more into question. If you are saying that Ennis didn't believe that Jack was seeing a woman, then how can we really assume that either of them were?

[Desecra]

Actually that point of view brings the reliability of the women that Jack and Ennis talked about at the camp fire even more into question. If you are saying that Ennis didn't believe that Jack was seeing a woman, then how can we really assume that either of them were?

Ennis may not have been.  I'm sure he wasn't seeing a man, though.   We never get told about Ennis lying about his sexuality in the way that Jack does, so I don't think he'd change the sex of a lover the way Jack does.  I'd guess that there really was a waitress and a Wolf Ears bar, but that the problems were really Ennis's.    (His lack of enthusiasm for performing sexually with a woman being one possible "problem".  He's no longer able to blame Alma).  

The reliability is already in question - AP later mentions their "truths and lies".  I think we have to look at the rest of the story to work out what's true and what isn't. 

[janjo]

Indeed we do!

[Paul029]

Paul, I do think the messages are mixed, and that Jack's interpretation is faulty.  It may be a case of Jack hearing what he wanted to hear.  Ennis gives three reasons why they can't be together:

1.  He's married (with kids and has built up a life). 

2. He thinks it's too dangerous to live together.

3. He feels being gay is wrong.

Number 3 isn't explicit, but is hinted at throughout, and it's at the root of the problem - it's never addressed, never mind conquered. 

Number 2 is made explicit, but it's seems to be (although it isn't really) at odds with the way Ennis has acted - having sex out in the open on Brokeback, kissing in a public place, going to a motel with a man, etc. 

Number 1 is given as a reason twice - at the reunion, and at the end of the summer (as the reason for not coming back next year).  It's also the first reason that Ennis gives at the reunion. 

The real importance of the reasons, I would order 3, 2, 1.   I think Jack makes the mistake of ordering them 1, 2, 3.

But what if Jack didn't see it the way you do? What if your sequence was reversed, or if there was only one reason that they couldn't live together—that Ennis thinks that homosexuality is wrong. The first time he ever mentions the issue ("I'm not no queer") makes that clear. To paraphrase Jack, everything springs from that: being homosexual is dangerous in itself (people on the street "knowing," passing remarks), let alone should two men decide to openly live together (which leads to death). While it's coincidental that Ennis marries, thus avoiding implications about his sexuality, his INNQ belief remains in force not only while married but even after Alma divorces him. Do you think Jack was unaware of that?

Perhaps you're placing too much importance on what Ennis thought? The divorce phone call involved two people, not one, and we don't get Jack's version.
If he misunderstood the reason for the call, what do you think Ennis thought was the "understood" reason? I'd be interested to get your opinion about that.

Another thing that must have influenced him is the huge change in Ennis's attitude at the reunion.   He has gone from not even acknowledging the relationship to talking about how deeply he feels for Jack (and also kissing and having sex like a lover, rather than a straight friend). Jack must have been giddy with that change, and assumed it was part of a movement forwards.   He knows when to back off (as he did on Brokeback), but hopes for more change.

I'm not disputing that he was affected by Ennis's changed approach, and no doubt Ennis himself was also rather surprised by his own reaction, but he also stated, and elaborated upon, his reasons for not living together in the motel that same night. Considering how explicitly detailed he is about his primary objections his reference to his married life almost seems like an afterthought.

If Jack misunderstood after the phone call, then I think he must have thought number 1 was the main reason.  I think he must have given up on living together once he realised that it wasn't. ~

Pardon my emphases, but I really don't think that that's the case, Des. We just don't know what Jack made of the phone call. I can't agree with you that he relinquished his idea of living together after the divorce. The text indicates, to me, that this just isn't so.

Reason Number 3 is the one that's hidden, but underlying, throughout the story.  It's the reason Ennis makes more explicit at the last argument.#   When Jack brings up the idea of living together, Ennis's response is to accuse him of being gay - that's the real reason they couldn't be together.  (And it is - I think if Ennis could have got over that, he'd have got over the rest).   When Jack remembers the DE, he remembers Ennis not wanting to see or feel him - something which showed the depth of Ennis's need to be straight.  Then he thinks that they hadn't got much farther.  I don't think he means farther in terms of living together or the frequency of meetings, but in terms of Ennis accepting what was between them (and accepting Jack, himself). 

I think what Jack gives up then ("let be") is that craving for Ennis's approval.  It can't happen (because Jack's gay and Ennis can't accept that, to put it most simply).  I think that's what he finally realises isn't going to happen, rather than living together (although it would certainly put the mockers on living together too, if Jack had still been holding out hope - I just don't think he had by that point).

# Which brings us back to INNQ, his primary objection to living together, and the one that's affected his entire life.

I agree with the rest of the quote, except that I feel "Let be, let be" is about more than Jack simply giving up on seeking Ennis's approval.
It's about everything to do with Ennis, and all of Jack's hopes.

[janjo]

I may be being stupid, it certainly wouldn't be the first time, but could someone explain to me how the phrase "Let be, let be" means that Jack had decided to quit Ennis. If, of course that is not the interpretation but the suggestion is that he just changed his mind afterwards, where are we told this?
Or do we only have the words of a bitter and twisted old man to base our theory on.
I really am having trouble with this, so please forgive me if I am being obtuse.

[fofol]

While we're at it, where does Ennis say that being gay is wrong?  There's enough obtuseness to go around, Jess.  The story I have clearly states he is deathly afraid of people finding out that he has this 'thing' with Jack, but never does it state, or even clearly imply, that he makes a moral judgement against himself.