Did Jack Quit Ennis?

[janjo]

We are back I am afraid to it being a way for Ennis to know that Jack was "playing away" down in Texas and that it could have been enough to get him killed. It is therefore a very important fact as far as Ennis is concerned, because then heknows it was the tyre iron.
It still could be the remnants of an alternative ending though.

[Desecra]

Yes, Ennis uses the issue of the life he's built up as one reason he can't do anything; but the more substantial reason is his fear of ending up dead (like Earl), which he admits "scares the piss" out of him. But the problem I have with the divorce being connected with Jack's (supposed) change of mind about living with Ennis is that it doesn't change anything: he continues to see Ennis for the next ten years, and he continues to talk about bringing him up to LF.

It's a more substantial reason for Ennis.  But for Jack - if he'd believed that was the reason, he wouldn't have "misunderstood" after the divorce, would he?  I'm not sure why Jack doesn't accept it as the reason, but I suppose he just doesn't quite see the significance of the childhood story.  Ennis also talks about being dead if that thing grabs hold of them in the wrong place, yet he goes to a motel room, and wants to continue seeing Jack.  I suppose he gives mixed messages, and Jack doesn't fully understand.  

What would the divorce change?   Jack was mistaken in believing Ennis would live with him.   Afterwards, it seems that Ennis didn't give any more concessions - they carried on as they were, and Ennis didn't phone Jack again.  

Giving up on the idea at the last meeting "fits" better with what we're told, so I think it does make a difference to the story. If it occurred after the divorce it not only undermines the importance of the DE but also makes a nonsense of what we learn at LF.
It's better, narratively speaking, I think, if he makes a complete break, not little bits at a time. And he does that during his DE thoughts, the last ones, importantly, which are presented 'first-hand.'
I think it's about everything, not only the relationship per se, but also Jack's dream.
Re the bolded section: That's not how I see it, unfortunately.

The turning point/s seem to be, for me, the torquing (where things on the surface may appear to be unaffected by everything that's gone before [including "I did once"], but which hides unseeable, deep fractures affecting the entire relationship [including Jack's hopes about it]) and then the DE (during which those fractures are closely examined).

I don't see why Jack giving up at the divorce undermines the importance of the DE thoughts.  The DE thoughts are not about living together.   On the night when they occurred, Ennis went back to the sheep, and Jack doesn't think of that as something that could mar the DE.  

The DE happened back when Ennis (in the SS only) believed Jack was a straight friend.  "Nothing seemed wrong".  In that moment, outside of the sex, Ennis is able to show love and acceptance  - it feels right to him because it feels like platonic love.   It doesn't happen again, because after Brokeback the relationship feels "wrong", despite Ennis encouraging Jack to pretend he's straight.  In a way, Ennis does explain that at the reunion - his insistence that he's straight, his categorising the relationship as something other, his not wanting to be like those guys you see around, etc.    But I don't think he really understands it himself until much later.  

What keeps Jack coming back after the divorce is his craving for the DE.  What the last argument shows is that Ennis is still incapable of accepting the relationship and most importantly, he has never been able to accept Jack as a gay man.  There's no way that Jack can get it right with him.

When Jack thinks of the DE after the argument, he remembers that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face because he didn't want to see or feel him.  And then (his information from the last argument and the torquing back), he thinks that they didn't get much farther.  

Ennis has been taught, not just that being gay is dangerous, but also that it's wrong and shameful.   That was in his father's message (he used to pass remarks, he laughed at Earl's body, etc.).   I think that's what comes between them (no more DEs), and is what is at the root of the last argument (when Ennis asks Jack about Mexico, it's not out of concern for his safety), and is the reason for Q.  

[Desecra]

We are back I am afraid to it being a way for Ennis to know that Jack was "playing away" down in Texas and that it could have been enough to get him killed. It is therefore a very important fact as far as Ennis is concerned, because then heknows it was the tyre iron.
It still could be the remnants of an alternative ending though.

There were other ways that AP could have made Ennis believe it was the tire iron, without introducing the idea of the RN moving up.  (And Ennis "knows" it's the tire iron because he believes OMT - he thinks Jack quit).

What was the alternative ending?   Ennis and Jack ending up together, both alive? 

[fofol]

There were other ways that AP could have made Ennis believe it was the tire iron, without introducing the idea of the RN moving up.  (And Ennis "knows" it's the tire iron because he believes OMT - he thinks Jack quit).

What was the alternative ending?   Ennis and Jack ending up together, both alive? 

  It also could be that Ennis know it was the tire iron because Jack is apparently fooling around in Texas, not because he believes in the Ranch Neighbor Fairy coming up to LF...

[Desecra]

  It also could be that Ennis know it was the tire iron because Jack is apparently fooling around in Texas, not because he believes in the Ranch Neighbor Fairy coming up to LF...

I think he already knows Jack was fooling around in Texas.  (Jack had talked about the RN's "wife", and of course, he died in Texas, not Mexico).  Also, when after Jack's father tells Ennis about the RN coming up, in the short story we're told "So now he knew it was the tire iron".  He believed it was the tire iron because he believed the story.   Jack seeing other men was no news, but when he found out Jack was planning to live with another man, Ennis assumed that was the reason Jack was killed.

[janjo]

I'm not sure that's right, Des.
Ennis thought that Jack was seeing other men, but this was confirmation.
He knew, but didn't want to know.
It was the way his mind worked.

[Paul029]

Yes, Ennis uses the issue of the life he's built up as one reason he can't do anything; but the more substantial reason is his fear of ending up dead (like Earl), which he admits "scares the piss" out of him. But the problem I have with the divorce being connected with Jack's (supposed) change of mind about living with Ennis is that it doesn't change anything: he continues to see Ennis for the next ten years, and he continues to talk about bringing him up to LF.

It's a more substantial reason for Ennis.  But for Jack - if he'd believed that was the reason, he wouldn't have "misunderstood" after the divorce, would he?  I'm not sure why Jack doesn't accept it as the reason, but I suppose he just doesn't quite see the significance of the childhood story.  Ennis also talks about being dead if that thing grabs hold of them in the wrong place, yet he goes to a motel room, and wants to continue seeing Jack.  I suppose he gives mixed messages, and Jack doesn't fully understand.  

Ennis made it perfectly clear what the major reason was: being merely seen as homosexual, let alone living with another man, ends in death. He and Jack needed to be discreet in order to stay alive, and the prudent thing is to meet only occasionally "out in the back a nowhere," rather than to live together. The married life he'd built up before the reunion, as chance would have it, was merely coincidental. But a divorce, by removing the social safeguard of marriage, would actually make it more likely that his fears would be realised. His thoughts about two men living together would be reinforced, and he and Jack would have to continue to be discreet.

The messages he gave weren't "mixed" at all, in my opinion, and I think it's highly unlikely that Jack would have thought they were.

What would the divorce change?   Jack was mistaken in believing Ennis would live with him.   Afterwards, it seems that Ennis didn't give any more concessions - they carried on as they were, and Ennis didn't phone Jack again.

Despite removing one "obstacle" to their living together, it left the situation basically unchanged. While it removed the "camouflage" which helped Ennis blend with his environment, and so avoid being seen as one of "them guys you see around," it didn't affect the underlying reasons for his objections to two men living together.

I said earlier that Proulx provides us with only Ennis's opinion; what Jack thought about the call, and the drive, isn't presented. What was so important about the call that made him drive from Texas anyway? He knew what Ennis thought about the idea of two men living together, so I can't see him driving 1200 miles on the assumption that Ennis had changed his mind, unless Ennis had said something to make him think so. But the drive wasn't for nothing, anyway—it confirmed that Ennis hadn't changed.

(On a side issue: Ennis's first phone call to Jack's number is only mentioned when he calls it the second time, and the two calls seem linked more than by a mere telephone. In the second case he thinks "This would be alright..." There seems to be a subtle suggestion here that it wasn't "alright" the first time, perhaps that he felt he was responsible for what he called Jack's "misunderstanding," and that this time there'd be no misunderstanding.)

[Paul029]

Giving up on the idea at the last meeting "fits" better with what we're told, so I think it does make a difference to the story. If it occurred after the divorce it not only undermines the importance of the DE but also makes a nonsense of what we learn at LF.

I don't see why Jack giving up at the divorce undermines the importance of the DE thoughts.  The DE thoughts are not about living together.   On the night when they occurred, Ennis went back to the sheep, and Jack doesn't think of that as something that could mar the DE.

The importance of the DE is that it's when Jack finally makes a decision about everything about the relationship, including the possibility of a life together. Until then he'd been telling his parents about bringing Ennis up to LF. That makes no sense (to me) if he knew, at the time of the divorce, that Ennis wouldn't live with him.

The DE happened back when Ennis (in the SS only) believed Jack was a straight friend.  "Nothing seemed wrong".  In that moment, outside of the sex, Ennis is able to show love and acceptance  - it feels right to him because it feels like platonic love.   It doesn't happen again, because after Brokeback the relationship feels "wrong", despite Ennis encouraging Jack to pretend he's straight.  In a way, Ennis does explain that at the reunion - his insistence that he's straight, his categorising the relationship as something other, his not wanting to be like those guys you see around, etc.    But I don't think he really understands it himself until much later.  

What keeps Jack coming back after the divorce is his craving for the DE.  What the last argument shows is that Ennis is still incapable of accepting the relationship and most importantly, he has never been able to accept Jack as a gay man.  There's no way that Jack can get it right with him.

Precisely. It's about Ennis's ingrained and ongoing fears about homosexuality, and the effects those fears had upon the relationship. One of those effects was his refusal to accept the idea of two men living together.

When Jack thinks of the DE after the argument, he remembers that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face because he didn't want to see or feel him.  And then (his information from the last argument and the torquing back), he thinks that they didn't get much farther.  

Agreed. He realises it's over.

Ennis has been taught, not just that being gay is dangerous, but also that it's wrong and shameful.   That was in his father's message (he used to pass remarks, he laughed at Earl's body, etc.).   I think that's what comes between them (no more DEs), and is what is at the root of the last argument (when Ennis asks Jack about Mexico, it's not out of concern for his safety), and is the reason for Q.  

The DE summarises the situation.
We may differ about the route taken by Jack in his journey of realisation, but in each case he arrives at "quit," and upon his return to LF later that month he no longer talked about Ennis.

[janjo]

How can we be sure that Jack "realises it's over" when we are told that "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" was the status, and that "somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been?"
That, which seems quite unequivocal to me, together with two other facts, a) that the shirts are still hanging in the closet, and b) that the ranch neighbour is not even given a name, he is so unimportant, does offer an enormous amount of evidence that Jack doesn't realise anything of the kind.
He still wishes he knew how to quit, probably he wishes even harder, but with this evidence the quit theory just does not add up, at least for me.

[Desecra]

Paul, I do think the messages are mixed, and that Jack's interpretation is faulty.  It may be a case of Jack hearing what he wanted to hear.  Ennis gives three reasons why they can't be together:

1.  He's married (with kids and has built up a life). 

2. He thinks it's too dangerous to live together.

3. He feels being gay is wrong.

Number 3 isn't explicit, but is hinted at throughout, and it's at the root of the problem - it's never addressed, never mind conquered. 

Number 2 is made explicit, but it's seems to be (although it isn't really) at odds with the way Ennis has acted - having sex out in the open on Brokeback, kissing in a public place, going to a motel with a man, etc. 

Number 1 is given as a reason twice - at the reunion, and at the end of the summer (as the reason for not coming back next year).  It's also the first reason that Ennis gives at the reunion. 

The real importance of the reasons, I would order 3, 2, 1.   I think Jack makes the mistake of ordering them 1, 2, 3.

Another thing that must have influenced him is the huge change in Ennis's attitude at the reunion.   He has gone from not even acknowledging the relationship to talking about how deeply he feels for Jack (and also kissing and having sex like a lover, rather than a straight friend).   Jack must have been giddy with that change, and assumed it was part of a movement forwards.   He knows when to back off (as he did on Brokeback), but hopes for more change.

If Jack misunderstood after the phone call, then I think he must have thought number 1 was the main reason.  I think he must have given up on living together once he realised that it wasn't.   Number 2 he never really addresses (apart from hints that he's been subject to or under threat of violence).  Number 3 - I think he tries to avoid seeing it.

Reason Number 3 is the one that's hidden, but underlying, throughout the story.  It's the reason Ennis makes more explicit at the last argument.   When Jack brings up the idea of living together, Ennis's response is to accuse him of being gay - that's the real reason they couldn't be together.  (And it is - I think if Ennis could have got over that, he'd have got over the rest).   When Jack remembers the DE, he remembers Ennis not wanting to see or feel him - something which showed the depth of Ennis's need to be straight.  Then he thinks that they hadn't got much farther.  I don't think he means farther in terms of living together or the frequency of meetings, but in terms of Ennis accepting what was between them (and accepting Jack, himself). 

I think what Jack gives up then ("let be") is that craving for Ennis's approval.  It can't happen (because Jack's gay and Ennis can't accept that, to put it most simply).  I think that's what he finally realises isn't going to happen, rather than living together (although it would certainly put the mockers on living together too, if Jack had still been holding out hope - I just don't think he had by that point). 

[Desecra]

I'm not sure that's right, Des.
Ennis thought that Jack was seeing other men, but this was confirmation.
He knew, but didn't want to know.
It was the way his mind worked.

Yes, Ennis knew.   Even before the last meeting, because what's said is "no news".  Even when Jack was talking about the "rancher's wife", Ennis knew he was gay.   And of course, Jack confirms it during the last argument.

So no, I don't think Ennis needs confirmation that Jack saw other men.  He knows that for a fact.   The surprise is that he was planning to live with a guy at LF.

[Desecra]

How can we be sure that Jack "realises it's over" when we are told that "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" was the status, and that "somehow, as a coat hanger is straightened to open a locked car and then bent again to its original shape, they torqued things almost to where they had been?"
That, which seems quite unequivocal to me, together with two other facts, a) that the shirts are still hanging in the closet, and b) that the ranch neighbour is not even given a name, he is so unimportant, does offer an enormous amount of evidence that Jack doesn't realise anything of the kind.
He still wishes he knew how to quit, probably he wishes even harder, but with this evidence the quit theory just does not add up, at least for me.

I don't think he does realise it's over at that point.   It's not until the end of the DE thoughts that he understands why their relationship is impossible. 

The shirts hanging in the closet have loads of meaning, but they'd be there whatever Jack had decided.

The RN having a name wouldn't change the story (as I've said, he's not a character we or Ennis "know", so his name wouldn't be useful information - we couldn't think "Oh, that guy!"  And there's no reason for OMT to tell Ennis).  His importance is not to do with his name, but his importance to the story - that he's included in Jack's "last words".

[janjo]

Yes, Ennis knew.   Even before the last meeting, because what's said is "no news".  Even when Jack was talking about the "rancher's wife", Ennis knew he was gay.   And of course, Jack confirms it during the last argument.

So no, I don't think Ennis needs confirmation that Jack saw other men.  He knows that for a fact.   The surprise is that he was planning to live with a guy at LF.

He now knows that Jack was reckless enough to see other men down in Texas in such a way that even his parents have heard of it. It is a very different situation from Ennis' suspicions that he really doesn't want to think about.

[janjo]

I don't think he does realise it's over at that point.   It's not until the end of the DE thoughts that he understands why their relationship is impossible. 

Sorry, but sez who?

I can't read the DE thoughts as saying that it was at that point that Jack decided to quit Ennis.

It says, "Let be, let be,"

Not, at that point, Jack decided to quit Ennis and make a new life for himself.

There is an awful lot of supposition, with no supporting text, if we are to believe this.

[fofol]

I think he already knows Jack was fooling around in Texas.  (Jack had talked about the RN's "wife", and of course, he died in Texas, not Mexico).  Also, when after Jack's father tells Ennis about the RN coming up, in the short story we're told "So now he knew it was the tire iron".  He believed it was the tire iron because he believed the story.   Jack seeing other men was no news, but when he found out Jack was planning to live with another man, Ennis assumed that was the reason Jack was killed.

   There is one thing here that may have yet to enter into too many consciousnesses: fooling around with a woman doesn't count.  Women are used for cover, but a woman, no matter how much the gay man likes her, respects her, etc., is not someone he'd give his heart to - homosexuals give their hearts to people of the same sex.  BTW, this is why 'homosexual' just won't do as a label for homosexuals - for most of us, our relationships are, like heterosexuals, about so much more than just sex.  So, it is very different that both boys are married to women and very different indeed if Jack were actually fooling around with another man - much more threatening than if he were fooling around with somebody's wife.

   And part two: "So now he knew it was the tire iron" doesn't necessarily mean that Ennis believed the story: it can also mean is that  if Jack was telling his father about a ranch neighbor, it must have been the ranch neighbor, not the ranch neighbor's wife as he told Ennis he was fooling around with.  Anybody like Ennis, who saw the ptoential of hidden murderers everywhere when it came to men loving one another, would put two and two together and come up with four: Ennis is underexposed and afraid to live his own life, but he's not stupid.