Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain

[tfferg]

The Godless Numbers Game
January 31, 2011 - 10:13AM
Comments 257

The census is coming up and Australian atheists are making a move.  But does it matter a jot what we say on the census?  Do the numbers matter?  The numbers are only a part of the godly versus godless fracas.

The Atheist Foundation of Australia is concerned about under-reporting in the census due later this year (August 9).  There is a feeling, I think a justified one, that people don't say they are godless when they probably are.

(snip)

A "mark the box" questionnaire might test the wrong thing.  It could test a person's faith or what they guiltily think they ought to be.  Who knows?
What might happen if
 the bar was raised to make the definition of faith include only those who had a certain minimum number of times in church, synagogue or mosque or a minimum number of religious epiphanies.  That would really cut the numbers.
 
But such a demanding test might also be misleading for in our time-poor world, where negligence of our community obligations is the norm.  The lack of participation is a measure of secularisation of society.  In other words, the power of God might have declined and this is a different question to the number of devotees.  The number of adherents might not change much but the content of their beliefs might change radically.  That is why a superficial numbers game is just that – superficial.

We godless invest a great deal of significance in the numbers.  This is the fate of minorities.  A minority will always have a covert eye on the stats, pretending not to notice but ready to burst into overt joy if the trend lines favour us.  So it is with atheists.  The recent census numbers look like this.

Percentage of "no religion" answers to the question on religious affiliation:
1996: 16.6 per cent
2001: 15.5 per cent
2006: 18.7 per cent

There was a wobble down in 2001 (when we atheists kept mum about the figures) but an increase in the decade.  In that decade the absolute number of Australians residents rose by 11.8 per cent (to almost 20 million souls) but the number answering "no religion" over-achieved, for it increased by 25.7 per cent.  Yea for us!

But before I pop any champagne, I would note that in the same period the absolute numbers of Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims increased by 109.6 per cent, 120.2 per cent and 69.4 per cent respectively!  C'est la guerre.

A question on religious affiliation has been asked in every census taken in Australia.  Since 1933, it has been explicitly stated that answering was voluntary. In 1971 the instruction ''if no religion, write none'' was introduced. In 1971 the number of unbelievers was at 6.7 per cent, a huge jump from five years earlier when it was 0.8 per cent.  This is an important jump.  Why did it leap in the Vietnam era by 830 per cent?

This surge is interesting to ponder from statistical and political points of view. I have no idea why there was such a leap but I would bet it had something to do with the way the 1971 census changed the way the religious affiliation question was posed.

AFA is going after the under-reported.  Foundation president David Nicholls claims, "unfortunately, because of the wording, many people will select the religion of their baptism or initiation at youth, despite not being a religious person at all."

The AFA will unveil billboards in major cities stating "Census 2011: Not religious now? Mark 'no religion' and take religion out of politics."

This campaign has gone global.  Organisations across the globe are campaigning at census times. Most outstanding is the British Humanist Association's campaign titled "if you're not religious, for God's sake say so!"

There is also going to be a vigorous debate as to the nature of the answers of the young.  In my household, one adult fills in the census for the whole tribe.  Who knows what answer gets put to what question.  My poor children will get no choice – they will be damned as godless apostates without an option.  And I don't even fill in the form!  In fact, I cannot recall ever filling in such a form.  That is one of the joys of living with an empirical economist.  She leaps upon every survey with a joy that defies belief (no pun intended).

Mr Nicholls concludes, "the figures for Christian respondents in the New Zealand Census this year are expected to fall below the 50 per cent mark ...but it should be us''.

The numbers probably count (groan).  They must be important for issues such as tax deductibility of religions, educational stoushes and legislation on moral issues such as abortion and stem cell research.

But this sort of issue is more complex than numbers.  Many signed up Catholics have voted for abortion legislation.  I am guessing here but I reckon they are of the faith but the faith in God's will has less power.  That is difficult to measure so we cannot expect the census to answer that question.

I feel in my godless waters that the numbers don't count for that much.  What counts is the power of God and faiths to move people and change their behaviour.  That is palpably in decline.

So what do you think?

• Is atheism under-reported?

• Do kids get ripped off on census night by having their faith chosen by their parents?

• Which kids get ripped off most – those of atheists or theists?

• Are the numbers relevant given that it is the power of God or gods that is most important?   If God's will cannot change behaviour any more is that issue more important than the raw numbers?  Or does God still move and mould us?

• Do the numbers count?

• Should atheists even ask for accuracy in the census?

• Should we be evangelical?  Does it matter if we are a minority or majority as long as we are left alone?
Over to you guys.

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/blogs/godless-gross/the-godless-numbers-game/20110128-1a7n6.html

Dick Gross doesn't mention the influence of the numbers of religious believers on equal marriage. Recent Australian governments have refused to reform the legislation out of fear of losing the votes of Christianists in marginal electorates.

[Jer009]

Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says

(snips)

Dr Wiener continued: "In a large number of modern secular democracies, there's been a trend that folk are identifying themselves as non-affiliated with religion; in the Netherlands the number was 40%, and the highest we saw was in the Czech Republic, where the number was 60%.

They found, in a study published online, that those parameters were similar across all the countries studied, suggesting that similar behaviour drives the mathematics in all of them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197


It can't happen soon enough for me. The sooner religion is gone, the sooner we can pay attention to global warming, for example. And the less likely the world will get blown up by a religious nut with a nuclear weapon. We've seen the danger of nuclear reactors in Japan and elsewhere recently.

[Nikki]

Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says

It can't happen soon enough for me. The sooner religion is gone, the sooner we can pay attention to global warming, for example.

But why does one preclude the other?

[oilgun]

Atheists more ethical than believers?

Why do Americans still dislike atheists?
[...]
A growing body of social science research reveals that atheists, and non-religious people in general, are far from the unsavory beings many assume them to be. On basic questions of morality and human decency — issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.
[...]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-americans-still-dislike-atheists/2011/02/18/AFqgnwGF_story.html

[BillyBobcat]

"Atheist soldiers are rated potentially deficient when they do not score as sufficiently “spiritual” in military psychological evaluations."

Interesting read, Mr. Gun. Ethical tendencies might indeed be a potential "deficiency" from a military point of view. I grant them their point. 

Meanwhile, you and I get to exercise our Canadian franchise tomorrow.  My riding here in Vancouver is, we're told, safely "secular", if you catch my drift.

--Bob/BillyBobcat

[oilgun]

"Atheist soldiers are rated potentially deficient when they do not score as sufficiently “spiritual” in military psychological evaluations."

Interesting read, Mr. Gun. Ethical tendencies might indeed be a potential "deficiency" from a military point of view. I grant them their point. 

Meanwhile, you and I get to exercise our Canadian franchise tomorrow.  My riding here in Vancouver is, we're told, safely "secular", if you catch my drift.

--Bob/BillyBobcat

So is mine, it's an NDP/Liberal race (NDP incumbent) here with the Bloc a distant third. The Harperites are dead last.  I'm an atheist but I've been praying fervently that Lego Hair doesn't get a majority.  I would have to become a sovereignist.

[Jer009]

How to Meditate

(snip)

Indeed, it is true that many contemplative paths ask one to entertain unfounded ideas about the nature of reality—or at the very least, to develop a fondness for the iconography and cultural artifacts of one or another religion. Even an organization like Transcendental Meditation (TM), which has spent decades self-consciously adapting itself for use by non-Hindus, can’t overcome the fact that its students must be given a Sanskrit mantra as the foundation of the practice. Ancient incantations present an impediment to many a discerning mind (as does the fact that TM displays several, odious signs of being a cult).

But not all contemplative paths kindle the same doubts or present the same liabilities. There are, in fact, many methods of meditation and “spiritual” inquiry that can greatly enhance our mental health while offering no affront to the intellect.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate/

[Jer009]

A companion to my last post, together with the last paragraph from the first post:

(snip)

(And for any readers who may worry that I have been insufficiently critical of the religion of Buddhism, I recommend the following essay: Killing the Buddha)

 (snip)

...to turn the Buddha into a religious fetish is to miss the essence of what he taught. In considering what Buddhism can offer the world in the twenty-first century, I propose that we take Lin Chi’s admonishment rather seriously. As students of the Buddha, we should dispense with Buddhism.

This is not to say that Buddhism has nothing to offer the world. One could surely argue that the Buddhist tradition, taken as a whole, represents the richest source of contemplative wisdom that any civilization has produced. In a world that has long been terrorized by fratricidal Sky-God religions, the ascendance of Buddhism would surely be a welcome development. But this will not happen. There is no reason whatsoever to think that Buddhism can successfully compete with the relentless evangelizing of Christianity and Islam. Nor should it try to.

The wisdom of the Buddha is currently trapped within the religion of Buddhism. Even in the West, where scientists and Buddhist contemplatives now collaborate in studying the effects of meditation on the brain, Buddhism remains an utterly parochial concern. While it may be true enough to say (as many Buddhist practitioners allege) that “Buddhism is not a religion,” most Buddhists worldwide practice it as such, in many of the naive, petitionary, and superstitious ways in which all religions are practiced. Needless to say, all non-Buddhists believe Buddhism to be a religion—and, what is more, they are quite certain that it is the wrong religion.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/

[tfferg]

Jer

The Killing the Buddha article resonates with me here in Thailand where official and popular Buddhism are everywhere and they are clearly mostly religious fetishism. Official Buddhism here is obviously about social control and popular Buddhism seems to focus on ritual, much of which contravenes the teachings of the Buddha, and many Thai Buddhists focus on using it to try to improve their luck in this life and ensure a better reincarnation. Vipassana meditation is practised by some and taught in some monasteries and I think by some lay people.

I've experienced the good effects popular Buddhism here can have. Some time ago, my partner went through some kind of crisis - he didn't come home from work one night and didn't phone me - his mobile phone battery had run out. As I discovered the next morning, he spent the night at his eldest brother's. He came home and burst into tears as he apologized on his knees and said he was very bad, but he wouldn't say why or what he had or hadn't done. He was subdued and unhappy for some days. And then a woman friend of his sister-in-law's asked him to drive her to two temples to make merit. I tagged along. He drove us to a big temple a few kilometres away and we performed a number of rituals together and then the friend had him drive her to a historic Hindu temple in the inner city where they made offerings at a statue of Shiva in the courtyard while I took the opportunity to explore the rest of the temple complex which I had never seen before. From then on, my partner was his usual calm and cheerful self. He usually performs Buddhist rituals only sporadically. The Buddhist temple in his family's rural village does still seem to continue to operate as a community centre.

OTOH, conservative thinking which seems to be based on popular understanding of Buddhism, contributes to preventing development of much-needed social policies such as the abortion in spite of the fact that the law is obviously dysfunctional - illegality doesn't prevent widespread abortion and the consequent injury to and death of many women.

[tfferg]

The media in Australia are running stories and opinion pieces on religion in government schools in the lead up to a High Court challenge to current government policies on religion in government schools.

The previous Federal government funded a program to pay for chaplains in government schools instead of upgrading the funding for properly qualified and trained counsellors. In at least two States, children attend a weekly period of Special Religious Instruction which parents can choose to have their children not attend. Children who don't attend the RI periods often have to spend the period at the back of the class or in another part of the school where they are not allowed to be taught anything because the kids in RI would miss out. They can be subject to teasing or ostracism by the other kids. Most of the RI sessions are given by volunteers supplied by a Christian(ist) organization called Access Ministries. They are not supposed to proselytize, but revelations of a speech by their CEO at a conference by their CEO included her saying things like how the program in government schools gave them an opportunity envied by the rest of the world to gain disciples for Jesus Christ. Their Bishop denies that the volunteers and chaplains try to convert kids.

In Victoria, the Education Department has ruled that, legally. a regulation stating that schools may schedule Religious Instruction in the timetable if approached by volunteers means they must do so.

The Victorian Education Act of 1872 legislated for "free, compulsory and secular education" in State schools. Until then, schools had been run by churches. The Catholics had organized their own system, but the Protestant churches were too divided and sectarian to maintain viable schools, especially in the face of the fact that much of the non-metropolitan population was sprinkled in small towns separated by long distances. (Low population density meant that private companies could not maintain or would not invest in public transport, utilities and communications, so railways, water, gas and electricity and telephones were provided  by governments in a way that made them affordable for all in regional and remote areas until all political parties were converted to economic rationalism and the fiction of the efficiency of the market economy in recent decades.)

In NSW, a non-religious course in ethics was trialled very successfully with children whose parents opted them out of RI in the teeth of opposition from Christianists. The course was effective in terms of kids' cognitive growth and also their behaviour in class and the playground, leading to an increase in empathy and a reduction in incidents of bullying. Then followed controversy over the proposed implementation of the ethics course for students generally and whether it should replace RI or be added to the mainstream curriculum.

The honcho of the Australian Christian Lobby which effectively pressures the government not to legislate for equal marriage scandalized people when on ANZAC Day he tweeted that Australian soldiers had not fought and died for an Australia which accepts gays and Muslims. His subsequent apology in fact wasn't one.


Christian guys and porkie pies
An inside perspective on religion in schools from a former fundamentalist pastor's wife.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12102

[Jer009]

tfferg--

Thanks for the comment on your partner and religious fetishism. It's sad that a brilliant philosophy like Buddhism can devolve into fetishism. I fled from Catholicism for similar reasons, and Harris is right to say that the Buddha's wisdom is trapped inside of the religion of Buddhism.

I'm recovering from a double hernia operation, so I may have more on this topic when I'm feeling better.

ETA--I meant no offence to your partner, and I apologise in advance if I did. I am interested in a secular version of Buddhism, and my comments were intended to reflect that.

[tfferg]

tfferg--

Thanks for the comment on your partner and religious fetishism. It's sad that a brilliant philosophy like Buddhism can devolve into fetishism. I fled from Catholicism for similar reasons, and Harris is right to say that the Buddha's wisdom is trapped inside of the religion of Buddhism.

I'm recovering from a double hernia operation, so I may have more on this topic when I'm feeling better.

ETA--I meant no offence to your partner, and I apologise in advance if I did. I am interested in a secular version of Buddhism, and my comments were intended to reflect that.

No offence taken, Jer. I share your interest in a secular  approach to the teachings.

Coincidentally, a few days ago, I read a translation of Chart Korbjitti's novel, The Judgment, set in a Thai village in the 1980s. The protagonist is a novice, a very good young man who does very well in his studies of the Buddhist scriptures, but disrobes in order to take care of his ageing father. When he dies, the son takes over his work as the school janitor and shares a house behind the temple with his father's widow, his step-mother, who he feels cannot look after herself as she is mentally disabled and prone to odd behaviour that scandalizes the villagers. A minor incident between the stepmother and a young vendor at the temple fair leads to the latter initiating completely false rumours about their relationship which leads to him being completely ostracized and everything goes relentlessly downhill from then on. He can find no understanding or peace from his Buddhist training. Virtue is not rewarded, quite the contrary. The villagers put what happens to him down to his bad karma. The novel is a bleak examination of hypocrisy, the effects of prejudice and malicious gossip and a challenge to popular Buddhism and popular conceptions of karma. It has been reprinted many times and sold very well in Thailand.

I hope you make a complete recovery from the operation very soon.

[Jer009]

Thanks for the good wishes, Tony!

[tfferg]

School claims bullying over religious education
Michael Bachelard
June 19, 2011

THE Education Department has warned a Hawthorn primary school council not to survey parents about religious instruction because to do so would be "provocative".

The department's student well-being division, which enforces the law requiring schools to run "special religious instruction" where it is offered, last week tried to clamp down on debate at Hawthorn West Primary School.

It also sent schools in the eastern region a suggested statement for their newsletters, urging school councils not to seek parents' views on the subject.
 


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/school-claims-bullying-over-religious-education-20110618-1g95j.html#ixzz1PfqEfMPm

[Jer009]

Bertrand Russell on God (1959)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aPOMUTr1qw&feature=player_embedded#at=164