Brokeback's Impact on Women

[andrew]

The following is an extended meditation which takes as its departure, Lynn's description in Reply #5 of her experience watching the love scenes of this film.

Our feelings, as when we are experiencing art, are such difficult things to try to pin down, to hold still.  Emotion...motion. You can come up with one explanation for them but an opposite one is just as valid.  One feeling / many reasons.  You try to follow individual blobs of water coming over the cliff, one after another, then you tire and give yourself up to the waterfall.

I am one who believes we cannot fully live without art.  So much of both men's and women's lives is regimented, laid out into shapes by complicated commitments to social expectation which can never be fully discharged till we die.  Women used to be defined by a lifelong series of duties to others, first parents then husband - and even now so many take almost all their pleasure in fulfilling social duties.  Men have their life of duty too, constantly dictated to by school, their friends' expectations, the military, the job, the wedding vows.  Although both men and women are equally constrained, they are given different constraints and not allowed to exchange them for the constraints of the other sex.  We are defined in so many ways there can seem to be nothing unlabeled left in us which could range freely about and explore.  The ancient social mechanisms which were devised to put a little shape into society, to keep us from eating or abandoning our babies, have over the centuries become so complex and so effective in all their gray little restraining ways, especially on all of us in the middle class, that our real lives can get lost, turn into doubtful momentary flashes seen through a grate across an imagined future or an imagined past.

Romantic or sexual passion, coming without reason, from nowhere we can understand, is one thing that can push all that away, at least for a time.

Passion can arise from another person in our actual lives, or we can experience it from art, which can also sweep everything else away for a time.  Art is different from all those rules we usually live by because it does not tell us what to do or think.  It is not even about us or our familiar responsibilities, it knows nothing of these or of us, it is we who have to try to acquaint ourselves with it.  Novels and films are about other people we have no duty toward because those people don't even exist.  When we experience art, for an apparently timeless artistic moment we clearly see past and future through the grate, although we have no reason to think it is our own past or future.

Some people can experience passion in life but not at all in art.  Some are constructed such that they must experience the life passion first and that makes the art real for them, others experience the art first and it actually changes the way they feel passion in life. For people who cultivate both their feelings in life and their feelings in art, there can be movement back and forth.

From the beginning art was a manifestation of religion.  There is religious magic in the way an actor disappears in his own person and becomes someone else.  Without any real knowledge how he does it, and somehow conquering the self-doubt of his mere everyday self, Heath Ledger in the love scenes becomes a passionate homosexual man of forty years ago whom another young man, recently a stranger, allows to experience not only sexual passion but also, it seems at first, the first love from anyone Ennis has ever known.   A woman watching this artistic transformation observes it carefully and learns, as if by modeling, to transform herself into the same character -- yet this imaginative capacity is the human birthright.  She becomes this very same passionate man, 'puts herself into' both him and Jack, living all too briefly in what seems a fuller more authentic way.

Other viewers of the film around her lose their normal defined characters, perhaps even genders and become Ennis too, or Jack, or perhaps Alma.  Later, those viewers who have been especially affected are able to relive these moments totally in their imaginations, at will or almost against their will, just as Heath learns to let his own identity trickle away unresisted and be replaced by that of Ennis.  In the story these viewers are all imagining together it is Jack who taught Ennis the love he never expected to feel, never knew he had available to draw on from his parents.  Later, Ennis comes up behind Jack and holds him tenderly.  He hums a little tune his mother used to sing.  The actor Jake has disappeared and become Jack, who has recreated this scene in his memory.  It is Jack who created and nurtured the love which allows Ennis to remember and connect with this almost-forgotten mother's love.  Ennis becomes, for a moment, his own mother, holding and nurturing Jack as if he were his own younger self, but also holding and loving the man who taught him to love, the only man he himself ever loves.  A woman, a viewer of the film, joins this group, becomes in different ways the mother, Jack and Ennis -- the characters and times are different but the love is one.  Ennis' loving mother has somehow come out from behind his unloving father to be remembered and become part of this embrace and help give Jack his 'single moment of artless, charmed happiness'.  In a later scene Jack's mother comes out from behind her husband in the same way, but Ennis understands and responds in the right way to what is happening in that house only because he has experienced Jack's love, which also connected him to his own mother's love, and then later enriches his love for his daughter.  

A woman who is a mother, Annie Proulx, writes a story which powerfully strikes another woman who picks up and extends it.  The original author finds her work validated by these extensions, 'richly augmenting it, adding flesh to its long bones.'  When this author meets the film director, he remembers the death of his father, she remembers the death of her mother.  When the film is made, the author feels that 'the cast and crew of this film, from the director down, had gotten into my mind and pulled out images.  Especially did I feel this about Heath Ledger, who knew better than I how Ennis felt and thought.'  The imagined character leaves its author and comes back more real, the actor who is effectively the author's pupil becomes her teacher.  The lump in the throat, the thrill of recognition is given by the author to the actor, then returned by him.  Another woman sits in the audience.  As if in her mind alone, the varied experiences of the authors, the director, actors and many others merge into a single simple moment when among colored moving shadows on the wall a real man kisses another and comes into his only real existence, helping her come into hers.

To me this is what art is, and does, and this is a little of what love does.

[lynn]

Andrew, that was beautiful! And so rich that I must read it over again to appreciate its many layers. You have described well the journey from Annie's mind, to her story, to the screenplay, to the actors,to the characters, to the film, and back into my own heart and mind.

And I think your essay offers an explanation for why I am going back to see this again and again, and why I am constantly replaying it in my imagination - Bravo!

[Melio]

This isnt going to be as fantasic a post as the rest of you have written.....

Im a straight, 18 year old female. This film made me cry so much. I went to see it with one of my best friends who is gay. It reminded me of how he used to pretend to be straight, and ws proud of how convinsing he thought he was, untill I told him I knew he was gay, then he realised he neednt hide it anymore. We live, and went to school in London, supposed to be one of the places n the world where people are free to be who they want to be, but then, he felt he had to try and hide it from the world, hide it from his friends and family, thats not right! He couldnt be himself around those people who are supposed to love him no matter what. Thats what made me sad.

Well... that just made me cry writing it, now I can't think whatelse I was going to say. I'll write the rest later.

[lynn]

Melio,

The sentiment you expressed was beautiful, thank you for sharing it with us. This film affects everyone in so many ways. The empathy you felt for your friend's pain is touching and I'm sure he appreciates it. I think he's lucky to have such a supportive friend who helped him have the courage to live a more honest life.

And since many of us on this board are a bit older, we especially love hearing that younger people like you are hurt by the injustices in this world and hopefully will work to change that.

We look forward to hearing more from you!

~Lynn

[sayitaintso]

 I think there's something to learn here about the "romantic" versus the "horny" aspects of what we think of as "sexy".  Women are supposed to lean to the romantic side, or at least that which involves emotions and personalities and backstory.
At least part of what is showing here, is that straight women are quite enthusiastic about watching gorgeous men screw each other. Yes, there's a beautiful and moving story, and yes there's superb acting, and a weepy ending and great scenery and fully realized characters yada yada.

If I thought they weren't gonna get naked I would not have driven an hour to see the flick.

 (OK, in Jersey driving an hour is about 30 miles, but still.)
I really do think, tho, that this is something new and noteworthy.  I never thought about guys doing it as a personal fantasy recently,  Now I think it's pretty intriguing.  At the same time, I suspect that in real between-the-sheets life there are a lot of couples who feel freer than ever to do things that don't fit into old stereotypes of male-female sexual activity.

Are we taking our cues from gay men and lesbians?  Are we all just lightening up a little? Are we breaking down myths about "doing" and "getting done"? 
I'm not sure.

[lynn]

Sayitaintso,

You raise some good points about our traditional interest in romance vs. the reality that many of us, for the first time ever, are realizing that male love scenes can be so "hot".

However, I'm not convinced we are separating the "romance" from the "sex" here. It's because the sex is within the context of a romantic relationship that makes it so appealing to many of us. If you look at the favorite scenes poll in the movie section on this site, you will see that tent scene 1 (the sex) is way down the list compared to tent scene 2 (the kissing) and the standing hug (romance). Similarly, we took an informal poll on the old site and found that many women who enjoyed this movie did not enjoy porn or other explicit material presented in the absence of an emotional connection.

Would you really not have seen the movie if they weren't naked? But we hardly even saw any nudity... you could see much more in a 5 minute tour of gay porn sites on the internet.

I'm not sure if this movie reflects changing sexual practices, but it sure is a revelation to both women and men that we can be so turned on by two guys.

[ImEnnisShesJack]

*Both* of these actors deserve an Oscar.  Neither could be convincing unless the other was also convincing.  These performances are two halves of a whole.

Initially, I overlooked much of Jake Gyllenhaal's performance.  Perhaps because Jack Twist still looks like a little like Jake, whereas Heath Ledger disappears into the layers of Ennis Del Mar and [poorly applied IMHO] makeup.  But after my 2nd and 3rd viewing (I'm headed back this weekend for my 5th viewing.  I'm obsessive about this movie.) I watched Jake in that final scene of them together.  I no longer saw Jake, I saw Jack.  Heard Jack.  All this time and Jack was always the one with the bright side of things.  Now all his happiness was turning bitter b'c the person he loved just couldn't wrap his head around the idea of some happiness.  *sigh*  I'm choked up again, replaying that scene in my head.  Jake pulled off the harder role, b'c he had to emote.  He had to reach and constantly go after the one thing his character wanted more than anything, knowing that by default, Ennis was going to turn him down again and again.  He couldn't give it up.

Jake's performance was subtle.  And brilliant.  he DOES deserve an Oscar nod for this.

[jack]

i'm jack...

and i have made the opposite journey.  i posited early on, and you can find those posts here and on the old boards, that while ennis was the focus of the story, the machine that drove it, his performance was absolutely contingent upon the relationship that springs from jackslove for him, which must not only appear authentic, but must appear to be enduring.  an utterly convincing jack ws necessary for a believable ennis, hence, 2 halves of the same performance.  when i finally got to see the movie, and i was seated far closer, thanks to a full house, that i normally would have been, i got to see ledger's craft massive detail.  i have proclaimed my wonderment all oveer thses boards, becuase lo and behold, this was one of the finest, most crafted, most believeable, nost subtly executed performances i have had the privilege of seeing. 

the story was, by then, very familiar to me, so i had the liesure of being able to track that and observe extraneous detail, even on a first viewing.  how ledger, as ennis, allowed his face to register all the things he couldn't say, couldn't even allow himself to feel was a perfect foil to what gyllenhaal, as jack, did with his incredibly expressive eyes.

ehen i had to acknowledge ledger's individual performance was during the sequence at jack's house, and particularly in the kitchen.  the tight shots on his face told a tale of pain, acceptance, tragedy and realization without his even parting his lips.  it is wrenching to watch.  i doubt if any of you can n replay that sequeence in your mind for more than a few minutes, or watch it on the movie screen, without cringing, as he absorbs blow after verbal blow.  its hard to type a description of it.  i originally said i had never seen acting, this minute this telling, but in retrospect i think i may have seen olivier and maybe fonda pull it off, but that's mighty heaedy company for a very young man with heath's body of work.

so now i can live with the best actor/supporting actor division with grace (and still spend hours on the jake's eyelashes board lookinng at those limpid eyes and dreaming).

jack   

[killersmom]

Hi all,
I posted this at the meet and greet site, and decided it needed to be here instead.

Hi folks, 
I am finally back after hectic holidays. Thanks to gnash,mary, and red_sun for their welcomes!   Oh, gnash, I do drink coffee, and since I have seen the movie now (3 times in fact), I do get it!    The movie finally did come to my city a few days after I initially posted, so I did not have to travel to see it.
I saw the movie with my best friend and business partner. She decided to go see it with me after I had been raving about it for a few months and had read the short story. She went into the movie not having as much of the back story as I did. She liked it, but not I suspect, as much as I did. She has since read my copy of the story.
It was unusual...after having seen the movie for the first time, I had a sense of disappointment at the end. Don't get me wrong, it is one of the most beautiful (if not saddest) love stories I have ever seen. After thinking about it I think I had hyped myself too much beforehand. Like Mary, this is probably the first movie I have truly fallen in love with, and am (unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how one looks at it!) obsessed with. I really do think of it a lot of the time (in between day to day living). I have the sound track and listen to it a lot as well.
I almost did not go see it the first time, knowing that it was going to be really sad. As I mentioned in my first posting, this has been a year of changes for me, and I try not to knowingly submit to sad or tragic issues. But then, that is really not living so I went. I am not sorry at all. It truly was all I had seen and read about and then some.
The story had already found a place in my heart that I did not know was there. I never had an issue with the "gay aspect". One of my very best friends from grade school is gay and he is one of the most wonderful people I know. He has been one of the greatest gifts to me this past year, helping me as no on else has been able to!
It is first and formost a wonderful and at the same time tragic love story and brings up so much of loves won, lived, and lost.  The story creeps into my thoughts at all times of the day and night. At times it comforts and at others it saddens.
Many of my women friends my age are not interested in seeing the movie because of the issue of two men, but a few of my sons friends girlfriends (20 somethings) want to go see it with me as the boyfriends or husbands don't. I have gone one more time by myself. This was good as I was able to watch it and absorb without having to talk to someone about THEIR reaction to it.
I plan on seeing it as many more times as I can, alone or with others, as each time I see more than I had the time before.
Initially I was curious to see the audience mix in the theaters here in traditional San Antonio. It has pretty well matched the mix I have read about on this board. At first, lots of gay couples. (I went the day it opened, which was sold out in two screens, after it was supposed to have opened on only one). The next time it was about half young mixed couples, single women and gay couples. The last time I went (last Friday) it was mainly older married couples. It is still filling the one screen at the theater I attend although it is showing at another theater as well.
I am sorry for the previous rambling. I am not sure of the protocol and hope I am not breaking any rules here. If I am, let me know.
Lastly, this is a fantastic community, one of which I have never had the good fortune of being a part of before and it is truly  a wonderful experience. I have not done much posting, but have been reading the posts almost from the beginning when it was in the other form. I guess I was hesitant to post, but as I have said this has been a year of changes and discoveries and this is one of the best discoveries I have made for a long time. Thanks to Dave Cullen and all his cohorts for this....it is truly a "loving" place to be. Thanks to those who wrote and those who I have yet to meet and share!
Linda (killersmom)
 
 

[cyoung]

I posted this in another thread on the forum and then found this thread.

*****************

This movie is haunting me. I keep thinking about it and wanting to see it again. A little about me: I'm a straight woman, married, age 44, with 3 kids. I saw the movie this weekend with three friends of mine after hearing that it was a beautiful love story. (I'm a sucker for beautiful love stories. Smiley I found this website after googling "Discussion of Brokeback Mountain." Great stuff here.

I seem to be having a delayed reaction of sorts in that it's grabbing me even more than when I first saw it -- although I liked it after I saw it as well. I sat in the theatre with tears streaming down my face while the credits rolled.  I'm thinking about trying to see it again this weekend, an hour's drive away. I asked my husband to come with me, but he's uneasy about it. I showed him the trailer, and he watched it with me intently, but when I showed him a clip in which the two main characters are wrestling, he got uncomfortable and walked off. Isn't it interesting the way some straight men seem more threatened by these kinds of movies than women do? What are they afraid of? That they'll also find a man attractive? That it could happen to them? That it's a threat to their masculinity? What, exactly? I got kind of annoyed with him for having that reaction.

It's a beautiful movie.

Cara

[dudnkink]

I hope I posted this correctly.  I tried reading the help section.....
I too, am a woman who loved this film, and thinks it will be up there w/all the greatest love stories ever told.  Move over Barbra Streisand, and Robert Redford, Ingrid Bergman and Humphrey Bogart.  But I had a dilemma for a few days after I saw the movie-and a question.  I identify as a lesbian, and therefore, am not interested in having sex w/any man.  But why oh why can't I get the beautiful, steamy, and passionate love scenes of these two handsome cowboys out of my head??  I think this love story is the most heart-wrenching, soul- shredding, tear-jerking love story I've ever seen.  But it was explained here quite eloquently:  Love is love.   This is what I've been feeling. 
Then, I've wondered since I saw the film last Saturday, and in talking to people, scoping people out in the theatre, what sort of audience/demographics do all of you think are seeing this film?  Understandably, fundamental bible-bangers aren't rushing in to see it, but my hope is with all the buzz, it will bring everybody else. 

[killersmom]

I am finally catching up on reading these postings. I too am a straight 53 YO woman who has been on the BBM kick for more than 6 months. I fell in love with the story from the beginning, even before I saw the movie. I too am at a loss as to the lingering affect this has on my life. I at first thought it was due to my husband's death and resulting issues, but from reading all the postings it is so much more and not just my reaction to it. Almost everyone posting here and elsewhere feel the same to varying degrees.

To Cara, I have seen it 3 times and plan on more. Love stories are a weakness for me as well. Go on your own if you have to. I have had to learn to do a lot on my own (not necessarily liking it) if I want to do things, as most people I know are still couples. As to your husband's reaction, I do think it is a male-female thing. Both my boys (mid twenty somethings) tease me about seeing and loving the movie, but the wives and girlfriends want to go with me to see it. I take them. My husband, although he became a crier at sad movies later in our marriage, would not have seen it with me. Based on other postings, there are a lot of straight men who have seen the movie, love it and are moved by it. As to why, only they can answer that. The reaction from the audience at the showings I have been to have been the same. People (men & women) cry, sit through the credits and deal with their various reactions. It is great to see.

To ImJackshesEnnis, I have been avidly reading interviews. One that Heath did (I think in Newsweek...could be wrong) when asked for the umpteenth time about playing a gay character he said
"I wanted my story, my particular character, to represent love transcending. Whether you want to label him gay or not, it's just a human being, a soul falling in love with another soul. It just happened to be in a vessel of a man."
For me this is the most wonderful description of their relationship yet follows on your reply #66. Thanks fr all your insightful input!

[killersmom]

Thanks Lynn for starting this thread. I have posted a few times on the meet/greet wm who love BBM and came over here after reading your notice. My posting isn't going to be earth shattering either.
I guess my love of the story is the wish to obtain this depth of love in my own life. I had a wonderful love for and from a man for 30 years before he and it was taken away. As with all lengthly relationships, the "newness" wears off (as seen  between Jack & Ennis as time passes in the movie.) The love and the tragedy parallel so many "real" lives, and I think this is one of the appealing factors.
I am not sure about what straight men see differently in the movie from women. I have only discussed it with other woman and gay males.  My twenty something sons know I have seen it and love it, but don't take it or my feelings about it seriously. That's OK. From a lot of the postings I have read, straight men who allow themselves to feel and react to the story feel much the same as we do. I was glad to see such a diverse group of people in the theater the 3 times I have seen it so far (especially in conservative San Antonio). There is some hope yet.
I haven't been able to explain to myself yet my reaction to this movie and the profound effect it has had on me, so it is a bit difficult to explain to others posting here. I initially thought it was due to my particular circumstances, but find that most everyone on all the threads are affected the same way. Profoundly and wondering why.
As to identifying with the main characters...that's a tough one. Going back to my original thought about finding this true, deep and abiding love despite so many obstacles (self made and society driven)  is how I identify with them. I can't honestly say that this is the love I have experienced, and who's to say it's even out there. What I had was way more than what a lot of people have had. It was not perfect nor overwhelmingly profound but it was real and good. I was lucky!
Thanks again for starting this thread.

[sydney]

Attended my 6th viewing today and I'm still haunted by the beauty and tenderness of it all. The CD has been on my car player for the last week, nothing else is allowed to play. Don't know when, or if, this fever will abate. If it does, will I be left with a void, longing for Jack and Ennis and worried how Ennis is getting along by himself? Will he ever be OK?  Will I?
Never before have I obsessed so about a movie. GAWD, I've got it bad.

[lynn]

I haven't been able to explain to myself yet my reaction to this movie and the profound effect it has had on me, so it is a bit difficult to explain to others posting here. I initially thought it was due to my particular circumstances, but find that most everyone on all the threads are affected the same way. Profoundly and wondering why.

Hi Killermom, welcome to the forum. You're right, it seems to be almost a universal reaction. For many of us, integrating the message of the movie into our own lives is taking weeks, and the insights seem to bubble up at the oddest times. Sharing the thoughts of others here seems to help.