Coming out: how and why?

[Flyboy]

Loved the video Ing, thanks!. Looks like an interesting cast too. But, alas, it won't be shown in the USA, I'm sure........maybe at some film fests, or Art Houses........

[tfferg]

A lovely interview with former Australian High Court judge, Michael Kirby in Melbourne's Sunday Age newspaper ahead of a biographical documentary on ABC TV's religious program next Sunday night.

Love and the judge
NEIL MCMAHON
June 20, 2010

AS MICHAEL Kirby knows well, some things add up only with hindsight, and even then the future can have other ideas.
The law, for instance, can take its time to make sense - and still later change its mind. Love is even more fickle. Life is a puzzle, and Kirby's life is a case in point. If the sum of it makes sense today, the living of it can appear a journey far less certain.

He is 71 now, seemingly serene, and therefore more comfortable describing the verities that have sustained him than he is harping on doubts that might once have plagued his peace of mind. There are so many things Kirby says he has never had to question. A loving family that always embraced him. An intellect that rarely failed him. A career that fulfilled him. A quiet but consistent faith in God. And perhaps the defining pillar of his life: a relationship that began 41 years ago, and still thrives today. Kirby is talking to The Sunday Age about the love of his life, and the secret he slowly surrendered to pursue a grand, life-long love affair.

''Pretty heroic,'' Kirby says with a smile of his relationship with Johan van Vloten. He is describing its length, but he might as well be hailing its survival - from its beginnings in a world very different from today's in its acceptance of gay people; through decades of public secrecy; an unusual coming out when Kirby was on the High Court; a tawdry but baseless political scandal with the couple at its centre; and finally, now, the first detailed public recounting by both men of a love Kirby describes as ''my great blessing''.

van Vloten has never before spoken publicly. He has been coaxed on to the public stage for an ABC documentary on Kirby's life, to air next Sunday. In it, he at last pairs his voice with his partner's to give viewers an intimate look at their relationship - and, surely, the nation's first close-up examination of any gay romance of such duration.

As Kirby tells it, when he came out in 1999 - via a discreet change to his Who's Who entry - it was van Vloten who was the instigator. ''He said we owed it to the younger generation. He wasn't so concerned about the politicians, he was concerned about young people who had gone through a similar life to ourselves.''

(snip)

In our conversation it is clear Kirby is delighted to publicly celebrate his love and to have van Vloten do it with him. ''I'm very proud of him,'' Kirby says of his partner's TV appearance. But he hopes people come away from this interview and next week's program not celebrating them as something special, but recognising the everyday simplicity of a relationship that just happens to be between two men.

''In fact,'' he says, ''I think the whole thing is a bit boring, but most human lives are boring. But the boringness of it is a very important message to get over to fellow citizens. It's not the whole of either of us, Johan and me, but it is a great blessing to us.''

(snip)

It's when Kirby describes his life leading up to that meeting that you understand why he considers it such a gift. In keeping with the times, his sexuality - something of which he had been aware since puberty, and which he regarded as an unchangeable fact of life - nonetheless had to remain hidden. ''At the time,'' he says, ''I thought, well, this is just how it is. Not the natural order of things, but the way society mistakenly was organising itself and this was just what was expected of me. I had a sexual life but it was always a fantasy life. It was all suppressed. And that was a hard journey, especially suppressing things to the people who were most important to you.''

Did he have girlfriends? ''No. And I never had walkers. I had women friends. But I never really pretended to be something that I wasn't. I wasn't always direct about who I was but I wasn't deceitful about it or suggesting something that I wasn't.''
Kirby was acutely conscious of what was at stake. Growing up, his family firmly believed he might one day be prime minister, and a political career did cross his mind. But: ''Two things stood like the Titanic iceberg in the way.''

Attending a Labor Party branch meeting, he discovered he was bored numb by the political game. ''And the second impediment was my sexuality. It was rumoured in my youth that Edward Heath in Britain was gay and he rose to be prime minister, but he had a very empty life. I'd grown up in a loving family and with loving relationships and I just didn't see that as an option really.''

So he focused on the law, a career that would take him to the pinnacle of the Australian legal system in a profession in which he believed he could at least lead a discreet gay life. ''I obeyed the rule of don't ask, don't tell, which is essentially a rule imposed by the majority, which can handle variations within it, of knowing that there are gay people and not worrying too much about that, but they don't want to think about it. And they don't want to have its reality forced upon them.''

Kirby and van Vloten grew adept at keeping their relationship under wraps.

''Sydney was like most towns, where homosexuality was not pronounced,'' van Vloten tells the ABC. ''You had to camouflage … as best you could. There were things you could not do … We always realised that was going to be a difficulty, [and] he had far more to lose than I had.''

Though their families knew and were accepting, outside their inner circle ''don't ask, don't tell'' remained the rule. But as attitudes towards homosexuality loosened, Kirby says, he increasingly came to believe that his being gay was an open secret, particularly when he became a high-profile campaigner on AIDS issues in the 1980s. ''That was sort of code language for my sexuality,'' he says. [Prime Minister] Paul Keating, he is certain, knew the truth when he named Kirby to the High Court in 1996. Three years later, the judge came out in Who's Who. There was barely a ripple. ''The non-secret is out,'' The Canberra Times editorialised.

(snip)

... Kirby...  describes his working life as a joy, his private life as ''a miracle''.
Compass: Michael Kirby screens on Sunday, June 27, at 10.20pm on ABC1.

Much more at
http://www.theage.com.au/national/love-and-the-judge-20100619-yo2r.html

[brianr]

A lovely interview with former Australian High Court judge, Michael Kirby in Melbourne's Sunday Age newspaper ahead of a biographical documentary on ABC TV's religious program next Sunday night.

Thanks for this. I will have to see if there is some way I can get hold of the documentary.
Michael Kirby has long been my hero. We grew up several blocks away. He is 5 years older than me, his brother (also a judge) was in my class at primary school. I followed Michael to Opportunity school, High school and University where he did arts-law and I did arts-education and our paths diverged and of course he went on to great heights. We are also both Anglicans and while I mainly attended the neighbouring parish (the boundary was in those few blocks that divided us) I did attend the same church as him for a time. He has carried on a polite battle with the fundamentalist rulers of the Sydney diocese, my battle has been far less polite
It was wonderful to have an out judge on the highest court in the land and now that he has retired he is being even more outspoken in standing up for Gay acceptance.

[tfferg]

Thanks for this. I will have to see if there is some way I can get hold of the documentary.
Michael Kirby has long been my hero. We grew up several blocks away. He is 5 years older than me, his brother (also a judge) was in my class at primary school. I followed Michael to Opportunity school, High school and University where he did arts-law and I did arts-education and our paths diverged and of course he went on to great heights. We are also both Anglicans and while I mainly attended the neighbouring parish (the boundary was in those few blocks that divided us) I did attend the same church as him for a time. He has carried on a polite battle with the fundamentalist rulers of the Sydney diocese, my battle has been far less polite
It was wonderful to have an out judge on the highest court in the land and now that he has retired he is being even more outspoken in standing up for Gay acceptance.

For me, Brian, It is a very moving article. How wonderful to have had some personal connection with Michael Kirby. He has been my hero for years too. I've never seen him in person. What he says about his feelings about his relationship with Johan van Vloten is very much in tune with my feelings about my relationship with Somphong. I've also been wondering if I can get hold of a copy of the doco too.

[gnash]

I REMEMBER THIS! OMG. i kinda like willie back then...  "mr pevney? the guy that owns the shoe store?"

Family (tv show)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__g0Jrc9U-w

Dad (James Broderick) helps son Willie (Gary Frank) process his best friend Zeke's coming out


great comment:

MattFrame    2 weeks ago    Mtzxple, many young str8 people experience same-sex attraction or emotional bonding during adolescence. It's a very common, normal part of a person's exploring & discovering who he is, before settling into the heterosexual lifestyle.. Just like many gay teens experiment with heterosexuality, before ultimately realizing that being gay is the way God made them. Sexuality and emotional connections are not set in stone, and many folks have a variety of experiences in their lifetimes.

[Lyle (Mooska)]

^^^^^^^

I vaguely remember that episode.  I wonder if FAMILY
holds up  or seems so 70's now.  Or seems too preachy.
I believe the 1st season is on dvd, but I don't know if
that episode is in it!  (I always watched out for every
"seemingly" series gay episode.  Even if I wasn't a regular
viewer.  From Taxi to Family to Lou Grant to The White Shadow.)

[gnash]

a compilation of all the "gay" episodes from various shows would be very interesting! i bet it would be HUGE.


here is a video on coming out in hollywood.

Out Actors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flH17_gnEJA

an interview with out actors Charlie David, Michelle Wolff and Gabriel Romero

"uhhhh... do you really wanna do that to your career?"

[Ennis Del Mark]

^^^^^^^

I vaguely remember that episode.  I wonder if FAMILY
holds up  or seems so 70's now.  Or seems too preachy.
I believe the 1st season is on dvd, but I don't know if
that episode is in it!  (I always watched out for every
"seemingly" series gay episode.  Even if I wasn't a regular
viewer.  From Taxi to Family to Lou Grant to The White Shadow.)

Lyle,

Yes, that episode is in the 1st season of FAMILY on DVD (which I own) and it, like many other episodes on FAMILY, still holds up, I think. Although I think Willie's rejection of Zeke has implications that are never discussed, i.e., my best friend is gay, wouldn't I maybe be as well?  And Willie always had a slight androgynous look about him.  Anyway, I loved FAMILY and wish the other episodes would come to DVD, even the ones with that hideous Quinn Cummings, who did not help the show.  I always had crushes on Gary Frank (Willie) and Meredith Baxter-Birney (who knew?).  And I loved Sada Thompson as the mother, Kate.  I sent her a fan letter in 2009 and got back a lovely note from her.

Lyle, I also would watch every gay-themed episode of shows, even though (I swear) I didn't understand why I really wanted to at the time.  There were some great ones, and some of which won Emmys:  "Cop" from LOU GRANT, and "Elaine's Strange Triangle" from TAXI and "Cousin Liz" from ALL IN THE FAMILY.

Mark

[Ennis Del Mark]

I hope one day to see the show about (no relation, sad to say) Michael Kirby from Australia!  He sounds like a magnificent man.

[gnash]

sada thompson was great as kate.... from wikipedia:

In the first episode, Nancy walked in on her husband Jeff (John Rubinstein) making love to one of her friends. During the second season she and Jeff divorced, but Jeff would continue to appear regularly as an active father, as well as finding himself involved in more of the Lawrence family's affairs. Other topical storylines included Kate having to deal with the possibility that she had breast cancer, as well as Buddy dealing with advances from boys. In the later seasons, there were instances in which Buddy had to decide whether or not to have sex; she always chose to wait, most notably in an episode with guest star Leif Garrett, who was a teen idol at the time. Another topical episode dealt with Buddy's friendship with a teacher who was revealed to be a lesbian.

hmmm, i don't remember the lesbian teacher... but hey, i totally remember the steven carrington episodes on DYNASTY. my mom loved that show. and oh boy did it make my dad uncomfortable to have my mom and i watching so intently, both of us telling him to shut up if he tried to interrupt. he hated the show. he would pretend to read his newspaper, but i know he was listening, and probably watching as well. the scene when steven and his gym buddy guys were on the gym mat after, i think climbing ropes? omg. their eyes locked. i remember being somewhat embarrassed to watch that scene in the presence of my parents.

i got used to drooling over men on TV with my mom and dad in the room. (i came out to my mom at 13 or 14 and my dad, well, he already knew)...  i used to watch the dukes of hazzard with my dad, that show he approved. but little did he know that i had the biggest crush on bo luke. i even bought a poster of the luke boys. (it took a while to find one without daisy duke, LOL.) the strangest part is that i bought it without him knowing, and i tacked it up on the inside part of my closet door to hide it. i guess i wasn't sure if i could get away with it, having that tasty morsel of blond goodness right there, almost life size, doing a number on my teenage hormones!

[gnash]

my AV (audio visual) teacher, vicki, was a lesbian. i loved her. she was a silent source of pride and encouragement. she knew, i knew, she knew i knew too. she revealed her lover to me in a very subtle way, when she had some AV students over to her house once. there we were, vicki came out and greet us, we go inside to work on the project for school or whatever it was, and then later on this woman comes out of the shadows. "guys, this is my friend, robin." our teacher said. we were so naive, being in HS and young. i was maybe a junior, possibly a sophomore, but vicki knew i knew, and i think even the straight guys in AV suspected, but nobody said anything much at all. i later went to her house by myself for something and it was the same thing. vicki didn't really say anything at all, but she didn't hide it either. it was like... normal.

another time, our group went to an amusement park around the end of the year vicki's her GF was there as well. there was a time when it was just me and vicki and her GF, and they just casually linked fingers as we were talking and held hands. i didn't way a word, but it made me smile to know that she was comfortable enough to reveal herself to me like that. they must have laughed to see my reaction. i bet my eyes grew wide. i'd never seen PDA between two women before, even though i'd seen it with guys. but she was my teacher, so it left a greater impression.

vicki had reddish hair and was kinda impish cute and had sparkling blue eyes.

i was in AV for three years, probably. as a senior, when i decided to go to move to SF to go to school, she kept telling me how i'd love it, that it was a good move, etc.  and i remember she signed my yearbook: stay vivid! LOL. but we never talked about being gay upfront at all. which, in a way, is kinda sad. maybe i wasn't ready for it, and she could tell that. i hope she knows how awesome it was for her to do those little things, to let somebody without a clue know that being gay was okay and i wasn't alone. i loved her so much for being honest, and not being afraid to help out a gay guy.

mr. harder (real name) was another gay HS teacher. (this was in colorado, btw.) he was probably 35 yrs. old, kinda cute. he was closeted, but my gaydar, even back then, put him off the charts.

i drew a lambda symbol on one of the papers i turned in. it came back with a good grade, and he'd circled the symbol i'd drawn (it was very stylistic, hello kitty style) and wrote: WHAT'S THAT?!?!?!

after i moved to SF looked him up. somehow i found out he'd moved there too, and it turned out he was living on the corner of castro and 18th... that's like ground zero in the gay part of town!

[Lyle (Mooska)]

i totally remember the steven carrington episodes on DYNASTY. my mom loved that show. and oh boy did it make my dad uncomfortable to have my mom and i watching so intently, both of us telling him to shut up if he tried to interrupt. he hated the show. he would pretend to read his newspaper, but i know he was listening, and probably watching as well. the scene when steven and his gym buddy guys were on the gym mat after, i think climbing ropes? omg. their eyes locked. i remember being somewhat embarrassed to watch that scene in the presence of my parents.

Of course, West Hollywood had Dynasty viewing parties in the bars, like the Revolver.
And Gordon Thomson, who played Adam Carrington actually was gay, and was quite
visible in the neighborhood.  Richard & Esther Shapiro were customers where I worked and
one day they invited an employee who was a really devout Dynasty fan, to the set to watch
them film the Moldavian massacre finale that season!  I have to say, I personally have never been
a fan of those types of shows.  I never watched Dallas, Knots Landing, Falcon Crest, or any of
those types.  Wasn't Hotel one?  I almost had to watch Dynasty, though, it was so prevalent
I couldn't completely avoid it!

[Lyle (Mooska)]

I, too, had a gay high school teacher.  Donald Todd.  He taught French.
When I was in high school this subject never came up, though, and I don't
recall anyone ever talking about it.  And yet, two decades later I remember
my Mom asking me one day if I knew that "Mr. Todd" was gay.  And it
was so matter of fact to say something like, "Yes, I did."

[BayCityJohn]

Of course, West Hollywood had Dynasty viewing parties in the bars, like the Revolver.

We used to have Dallas viewing parties somewhere in WEHO but I can't remember which bar for some reason  . I do remember the Revolver, but I think I left CA just after Dynasty came out.

[gnash]

hmm. at that seedy little stand up video bar in the castro they played AB FAB and i hated it. i never got the whole patsy/edina (?) craze, lol. a couple a drunk bitches.... whatever. but i know they have lots of gay fans.  :::runs from thread:::

all across the world, closeted teenage boys are no doubt watching BBM privately by themselves. probably downloading it online. i know i would if i was that age when BBM came out. keeping it a secret from mom and dad. but i bet they don't get the impact. i've said this before, it seems to hit harder if you're a bit older, you've been through what jack/ennis endured, or you've lost a love like ennis or jack. so many younger friends (gay males) that saw the movie were unimpressed. but a few straight girl friends of mine were hella impacted by the film. in fact, the girl that gave me the bootleg copy of BBM when it was still in the theaters (her dad was the academy voter) was head over heels in love with BBM. and she was probably 18 or 19 at the time.

i only got into dynasty because of steven carrington, and couldn't have cared less about crystal or alexis (although the pool fight was fun), or that heather locklear character. oh. SAMMY JO. or was that dallas? there was a cute guy on dallas too, as i recall... a closeted teenager in the late seventies, those evening dramas on TV did provide some cheap thrills and fun.

but so did saturday night live.

well, this guy was on dallas but he wasn't the cute guy i was thinking of (from wikipedia):

Timothy Patrick Murphy, (November 3, 1959 - December 6, 1988) born in Hartford, Connecticut, was an American actor, perhaps best known for his role as "Mickey Trotter" on the popular CBS prime time soap opera Dallas during the 1982–83 season.  ...

Murphy later contracted HIV and died of AIDS on December 6, 1988 in Sherman Oaks, California. He once stated that he'd had an affair with the allegedly bisexual actor Brad Davis, who had AIDS and committed assisted suicide in 1991.[1]

His younger brother, Patrick Sean Murphy, was killed in the World Trade Center attacks of September 11, 2001.




 so cute omg.