Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter

[Paul029]

Just musing...

Yes, interesting that the adult Ennis does put more emphasis on the effects of the tire iron and gravel. I'm not sure what "bloody pulp" refers to - the overall appearance? But perhaps to a nine-year-old the blood and violence would have had more impact than the castration itself. And certainly the tire iron reappears in Ennis's next speech, and of course in the fact that he "knows" Jack was killed by the tire iron (inverted commas deliberate).

Your musings are not only welcome but insightful, Sara.

The image of the eviscerated sheep is an excellent additional to the film IMO; we only know later how it must have resonated with Ennis's recollections of Earl's fate, but we can understand at that moment in the film how it is tied up with guilt and possible punishment: what happened with Jack, the suddenness and near-violence of it, and the consequences of dereliction of duty (something which remains important to him later in life - "late heifers still calvin. You don't leave then. You don't" - even at the expense of his relationship with Jack).

I've bolded what could be seen to be two separate thoughts, but wonder to myself whether they're more intimately connected than at first appears.
I guess that depends on what is meant by "duty."

[janjo]

Paul and Sara, I like your musings a lot, especially  the ones about Ennis's duty to his stock. These feelings seem to have been almost inbred into these sort of men. My grandfather was a stockman and a shepherd, and he was there to look after his stock every day, Christmas or Easter, weekend or weekday, the animals come first, even when you feel unwell and it's snowing.
A very special breed of men.

[Cally]

Your musings are not only welcome but insightful, Sara.
I've bolded what could be seen to be two separate thoughts, but wonder to myself whether they're more intimately connected than at first appears.
I guess that depends on what is meant by "duty."

Thanks  .

I saw this as Ennis being torn between two (at this moment irreconcilable) duties, so that whatever he did was wrong: his duty to the livestock and his job, and the consequences of this in regard to paying child support - and his duty to Jack, not in the sense of an unwilling obligation to him, but because he genuinely  doesn't want their limited time together to be further decreased. I think the time with Jack is still the fundamental core of his life.

There is no clearcut correct action at this moment in Ennis's life, and although we like to think that he could sometime previously have found a way for them to have a life together, I do wonder whether it ever really was possible.

[Paul029]

... I saw this as Ennis being torn between two (at this moment irreconcilable) duties, so that whatever he did was wrong: his duty to the livestock and his job, and the consequences of this in regard to paying child support - and his duty to Jack, not in the sense of an unwilling obligation to him, but because he genuinely  doesn't want their limited time together to be further decreased. I think the time with Jack is still the fundamental core of his life.

Your reference to Ennis’s “dereliction of duty” piqued my interest and, although the context to which you referred was in relation to the eviscerated sheep (perhaps echoing Earl’s death, and foretelling Jack’s—in Ennis’s mind, anyway) and his failure to tend his flock, I wondered whether his relationship with Jack could be “seen” in that light.
In a way, tending to Jack was also his duty.
He failed in this as he failed to save a sheep.

This issue could, perhaps, be continued on the “Character Analysis of Ennis Del Mar” thread; but I feel it’s also relevant here.
I don’t think “character” and “sexuality” are mutually exclusive.

The problem, as I see it, is that Ennis fears that he may be identified as being homosexual because of his relationship with Jack.
At no stage does the story indicate, although he engages in same-sex activity, that this is so.

R&R made a valid point, at the end of a previous TOTW, that while Earl and Rich “were smart enough to keep all affection behind closed doors, or at least in the middle of nowhere” it was enough that they “were [not only] living together” but were also unrelated, to trigger the hate crime of Earl’s murder. Her conclusion was that “it’s not what you do--[but] what other people think you might be doing .”

I responded with “it's not who you are, [but] what other people think you might be.”
This, I think, is the core of Ennis’s difficulty—the opinions of others.

Is it necessarily a foregone conclusion that two men living together will always be interpreted by “other people” (i.e. “society”) as  indicative of a homosexual relationship?

Proulx avoids mentioning whether Earl and Rich were (or were not) related, nor does her story unequivocally state that her “pretty tough old birds” were homosexual.
They were a joke “down home” simply because they “ranched together”, not because of any evidence, as R&R indicated, that they were in a sexual (and/or romantic) relationship.

But it was enough to provoke the outrage of the red-blooded (and hence more “masculine”) men of Sage to exact what they considered to be due punishment on someone who “broke the rules” about what was deemed “normal” behaviour.

A recent news article is not only highly disturbing, but pertinent.

In this case the executed woman was (merely) “accused” of being an adulteress, but it was enough to bring about her death.
The same condition applies to Ennis, as it did, once, to Earl.

Update: that the woman was "killed by the decision of the local residents" rather than with the authority of the Taliban underlines my point.

[Vlad]

For the beggining i dont want to mix personality and sexuality together because they do not fit. About sexuality: After a lot of analysis i can say that Jack is a bisexual man from my point of view because he enjoys in cudling, kissing, sex or whatever is the part of intimacy wih both genders, its really obvious. He loved Ennis and he enjoyed having sex with him and from the other side as far as I can judge he enjoyed having sex with his wife. For some this maybe is a bit too harsh with a not a lot of explanation but i see it that way. If anyone else has something to add please write your opinion too...

And about Ennis, omg, he is a hard one... Im seriosly not sure about him, in most cases I can assume but in his I really dont know. We know that he loved Jack and that he enjoyed having sex with him or any other part of intimacy between them, not only sex, its not all in sex but from the other side he also had a wife with who he had children but did he get married because:
 - he really liked woman or
 - because he would be weird to other people without a wife and children (you know that Ennis is complicated in this matter, that he always looks what other people say and that he always has a feeling that someone is looking him with a weird look)

If I had an answer to this second thought I would say is he gay or not, then I would know for certain like you all folks together with me

Something that i think that is most right is that he is gay, that he got married only because of other people to not look weird, he could never loved Alma as how he loved Jack, that is obvious, soo only thing left is sex which was maybe just to conpensate on some way Jacks apssense. I dont want to go to character definion but I just want to add here because its relevant that we all know that Ennis was a bit too much agressive and too much quiet person, those are all indicators of a scared gay man (agressiviness and talking that is seted to a minimum). Guys, i need your help here, comment Lets roll in this subject

[janjo]

As I see it, Vlad, Ennis was gay, and married because he had to so as to fit in socially.
Jack was gay, but married Lureen, because she had money and was a convenient meal ticket.

Bare bones there, but I wondered what you thought.

[Ellen (tellyouwhat)]

Interesting, vlad, in your conclusions that Jack may be bi, and Ennis gay.

Many who have commented in the past came to the conclusion that Jack was clearly gay for quite a few reasons:

He seems more comfortable with the relationship--
he is the one who wrote to Ennis and drove to WY to see Ennis after 4 years--
he had relations with other men, both on the rodeo circuit and also in Mexico --
in the "quit you" speech, he talks about needing something he can't hardly ever get.


Some people think that maybe Ennis is only "gay for Jack" but many of us agree with your assessment, that Ennis is gay.

For the reasons that you state, and that janjo summarized.

[Cally]

But as you may have seen, this topic has generated many fireworks, so cover your head, Vlad!

[Vlad]

Hahaha, Cally that was a blast Soo at some way we can say that Jack was gay like Ennis. Yea, i agree, all those reasons you stated Ellen are really good. I over looked his "trips to Mexico" and all his driving back and forth and the post cards... But i knew that Ennis got to marriage because of his social issues he had in his head...

[bubba]

I haven't been in this thread in so long, I forget what I originally thought.

I "think" I  thought Jack was bi-sexual, he looked like he was having a pretty good time with Lureen in the back of that car.  But he didn't love her, he loved Ennis.

As for Ennis, I think he was gay (and in denial) I don't think he enjoyed sex with Alma, but I do believe he loved her.

If that makes any sense?   

[Vlad]

I haven't been in this thread in so long, I forget what I originally thought.

I "think" I  thought Jack was bi-sexual, he looked like he was having a pretty good time with Lureen in the back of that car.  But he didn't love her, he loved Ennis.

As for Ennis, I think he was gay (and in denial) I don't think he enjoyed sex with Alma, but I do believe he loved her.

If that makes any sense?   

Hey Bubba, that was the same answer as I had here for my first time that Ennis is gay, that is for sure and that Jack is bisexual.  Jack nasty is a problem. :-D But Ellen sumarized some very good facts which indicate thst Jack was gay too and i really thought he is bi. I was wrong :-(

[Paul029]

Hey Bubba, that was the same answer as I had here for my first time that Ennis is gay, that is for sure and that Jack is bisexual.  Jack nasty is a problem. :-D But Ellen sumarized some very good facts which indicate thst Jack was gay too and i really thought he is bi. I was wrong :-(

Vlad, do you think that Ennis and Jack are both homosexual because of what's in the story, or in the film's version of the story?

[Vlad]

Vlad, do you think that Ennis and Jack are both homosexual because of what's in the story, or in the film's version of the story?

Hey Paul, well the point is that I havent read the story, I only have watched the movie for now.

[Paul029]

Hey Paul, well the point is that I havent read the story, I only have watched the movie for now.

It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts on the story, Vlad.

[Ellen (tellyouwhat)]

^^^
Paul we can discuss the story and not ruin it for vlad.

So -- Jack was "not rolling his own" which most interpret as a reference to relations with some of the guys. (somewhat represented in the film by his come-on to Jimbo) Ennis asks him "you do it with other guys?" and Jack doesn't answer right away.

And the reference to Mexico, IMO, is much more oblique in the story, but it means what it means. Ennis had heard that "Mexico was the place."

So I don't remember if you (Paul) are entrenched in any particular belief. I'm going by my own analysis of the story, how the movie interpreted it (faithfully, I thought) and the original intentions of Annie Proulx regarding Ennis (her idea for the story wondering about a man she thought might be "country gay."-- how would that person handle it?)