Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter

[AZ.bbm]

We are talking about Jack Twist, a specific, fictional film character, are we not?
One whose behaviour is forever—unchangingly—fixed in celluloid?

No, I was generalizing; sorry..  

[AZ.bbm]

Your verbatim quote from the film indicates that not only someone  but everyone in town looked at Ennis like (i.e. as if) they knew....

-Such an excellent post, Paul!

A few thoughts, here:

I'm not sure why we disagree that Ennis may have thought that he might have been wearing a 'scarlet letter'... (a big, red 'Q' for Queer?) IMO, paranoia was certainly within the purview of his character...



2. I don't think that "two men living together" would be what Ennis was most feared; lots of brethren & sisteren were involved in shared living arrangements in the old days, for economic reasons. (Abe Lincoln was involved in two such arrangements, both well-developed "bromances");  it's that J & E, like Earl & Rich, would be living together as "man & wife" that got his (& the community's) hackles up, and he didn't want to deal with it, not even for love...
+By no means was Ennis a 'crusader;' indeed, he was a quintessentially, endogenously homophobic..



3. I think that Ennis asks Jack whether he has sex with other guys because he doesn't really trust Jack's response to his INNQ declaration, Jack having originally made the first pass toward him, giving him 'reason' to suspect that he is not the only guy that Jack has approached for sex. Mind you, we don't know this for certain, unless, of course, we had first read and been prejudiced by AP's innuendo in the SS,  e.g., riding more than bulls, finding ways to spend his money on business trips,  yada, yada, yada...

[janjo]

Does  the fact that we are not told that Ennis was ever attracted to any men other than Jack, mean that he wasn't, or is it meant to indicate that he was so internally homophobic, even sometimes to the point of paranoia, that he wouldn't ever admit to it?
In other words, does AP want to indicate to us that Ennis was mostly heterosexual, or that he was so massively in denial that only Jack Twist could break through?
This would be much more understandable in view of the fact that Ennis del Mar, "island in the sea," can only be reached by his own "Water Walking Jesus."

[Paul029]

~snip~ Kissing, a big taboo, would have indicated effeminacy, and neither of them wanted to appear that way.

Oh! I don't think they were worried about looking or feeling effeminate at that point, they were beyond caring by then...

a) If they were "beyond caring" in the motel why do you think Proulx omitted saliva, yet listed semen, sweat, and shit?

~ and I suspect that whatever we are told, that that wasn't the only time they kissed. It was what came naturally.

b) What do you mean by “whatever we are told,” Jess?
c) What personal experience do you have which could support your claim that kissing each other “came naturally” to young men (whether in Wyoming or elsewhere) in the 1960s?
d) Do you think it’s possible that Ennis’s and Jack’s film kisses (once in the open air, once in the tent at night, once in the motel, when Jack kissed the back of Ennis’s head) could have influenced your opinion that they also occurred in the story?

Ennis even called Jack "little darlin,'" and he wasn't big on endearments either.

e) As it’s the story’s sole “endearment,” don’t you think it backs up Proux’s statement that he "wasn't big on them?"   

I would suggest that when they were together they found it hard to control themselves, and even if the kisses were quite rough, that they still happened.

f) Proulx is very clear on a number of occasions about the type of sex which occurred between Jack and Ennis
She is also emphatic that Ennis was not big on endearments (i.e. vocal or physical expressions of affection and tenderness).
Their sex together is not tender, nor is it affectionate; it’s rough, strong and driven by powerful sexual arousal.
She’s quite clear that this is the way her readers should understand how her characters always behave when aroused.

Yet she mentions only a single kiss—the one which occurred on the stairs outside the Riverton apartment—and no others at all.

Why do you think she did this?

In your opinion, was it perhaps an oversight on her part?

[Paul029]

~ I wonder in what way/s you think the story would be any different if Ennis’s sexuality was interpreted as heterosexual?

Considering that it's about “destructive rural homophobia,” what difference would there be between:

          a) Ennis as a homosexual man fearful of being labelled as queer?
              
              and

          b) Ennis as a heterosexual man fearful of being labelled as queer?

I suppose that if Ennis were really heterosexual he would feel less guilt, and be happier in his own skin, but I have to say once again, truly heterosexual men don't fall in love and have sex with other men. Men who say they are "straight" but aren't, might, but honestly heterosexual men really don't.
I think if Ennis were really heterosexual it would lessen the tragedy in some respects, because then Jack would be more of a brother / friend / soul mate, with whom Ennis occasionally had sex, rather than. as I see it, the love of his life.

My questions were theoretical, and not intended to persuade you to change your mind in any way, Jess.
Nor was I talking about about men who "say" they are "straight."

So, let's leave Ennis out of it altogether for the moment. 

For the sake of argument I was asking you to consider the situation of a heterosexual man living in a homophobic society who feared that'd be labelled as "queer" because he had sex with another man.

• Why would such a man feel less guilt (than a homosexual man also living in a homophobic society)?

You appear to think that it’s unlikely for a heterosexual man to regard a homosexual man as "the love of his life."

• Why is that?

Back to the story, now:

• Do you think that, because Ennis and Jack engage in consensual physical sex, that this is the defining condition of who they are?

Each also has physical sex with a woman.

• Would that, in your opinion, automatically categorise them both as bisexual?

Questions, questions...   

[Cally]

a) If they were "beyond caring" in the motel why do you think Proulx omitted saliva, yet listed semen, sweat, and shit?

Well, that's an easy one - she omitted yet another alliterative bodily secretion becuase saliva doesn't normally make a room stink.

[Paul029]

I know this was addressed to Stan, but felt sufficiently intrigued to reply—and ask two more questions. 

Does the fact that we are not told that Ennis was ever attracted to any men other than Jack, mean that he wasn't,# or is it meant to indicate that he was so internally homophobic, even sometimes to the point of paranoia, that he wouldn't ever admit to it?*

Why don’t we just accept as a fact that he wasn’t attracted to other men, and leave it at that? 

In other words, does AP want to indicate to us that Ennis was mostly heterosexual, or that he was so massively in denial that only Jack Twist could break through?

How can someone be mostly heterosexual? 

This would be much more understandable in view of the fact that Ennis del Mar, "island in the sea," can only be reached by his own "Water Walking Jesus."

I liked the way you put forward one proposition (#), followed by an alternative one (*), then blew the first one out of the water, Jess. 

[Cally]

I know this was addressed to Stan, but felt sufficiently intrigued to reply—and ask two more questions. 
Why don’t we just accept as a fact that he wasn’t attracted to other men, and leave it at that? 
How can someone be mostly heterosexual? 

b) Sounds ok to me - just an alternative to slightly bisexual?

[janjo]

That's the way I see it. Not that I think Ennis was even mostly, or more likely, even slightly heterosexual.
Also, I haven't blown myself out of the water on to an island.
Jack wasn't able to attract Ennis because of his sexuality, per say, although that is a given, but rather he was able to break down Ennis's wall of denial by the force and likeability of his personality.

[AZ.bbm]

(You see, this is what happens when a bunch of academics come together!)

[Paul029]

Well, that's an easy one - she omitted yet another alliterative bodily secretion becuase saliva doesn't normally make a room stink.

I like objective, reasonable answers such as this. Thank you, Sara.

However...

Your answer is somewhat flawed.

Considering the poor general oral hygiene of rural people during the period in question it could be taken as understood by Proulx, what with her no doubt detailed studies of Wyoming in the 1960s, that the breath of itinerant sheepherders stank to high heaven due to their inadequate (if any) dental care including, but not limited to, ignorance of (or unwillingness to use regularly, if at all) toothpicks, dental floss, Listerine, Colgate toothpaste, toothbrushes and tongue scrapers.

The mouth alone contains over 600 types of bacteria, many of which, in the right conditions, can produce foul odours.
Dental caries and gum and periodontal disease are also contributing factors to halitosis and hence to stinky saliva.
(I have access to far more information on this issue should it be required, including but not limited to, dietary factors, nasal infection, tonsil putrefaction and problems associated with the esophagus and the stomach.)

I could even go so far as to suggest that Proulx's later reference to "vast clouds of steam" is her oblique reference to the stench of Ennis's breath.
If so, it's no wonder that he stood as if "heart shot, face grey and deep-lined, grimacing, eyes screwed shut, fists clenched, legs caving..." when he smelt his own bad breath. 

So, Sara, I think that there could have been another reason: they kept their mouths shut when they engaged in sexual congress.
Actually, the more I think about it now, the more I wonder whether they felt nausea during the reunion kiss.
Perhaps that’s why they only ever kissed that one time, the time they got “carried away”—never before, and never after. 

It was enough to put them off kissing each other forever.

Hmm. American films often don’t seem to worry about period dental verisimilitude, nowadays, do they?
All those glaringly bright white teeth flashing away, blinding audiences.
What a relief it was to see the Coen brothers’ got it right, in True Grit. 

[AZ.bbm]

b) Sounds ok to me - just an alternative to slightly bisexual?

-Yep! 

[AZ.bbm]

[1] Does  the fact that we are not told that Ennis was ever attracted to any men other than Jack, mean that he wasn't [attracted to other men ?] ,
or
[2] is it meant to indicate that he was so internally homophobic, even sometimes to the point of paranoia, that he wouldn't ever admit to it?

-Either possibility sounds plausible...

AP pegged Ennis as gay from the get-go, via the prologue. -There was no such prologue/'pegging' in the film; the audience members supplied their own back-stories, side lines, fantasies, agendas,....

If the polls here on the forum are representative of BBM audiences on the whole, then for upwards of forty-percent of BBM's overall audience, Ennis del Mar was straight as a razor.

...does AP want to indicate to us that Ennis was mostly heterosexual, or that he was so massively in denial that only Jack Twist could break through?
This would be much more understandable in view of the fact that Ennis del Mar, "island in the sea," can only be reached by his own "Water Walking Jesus."

I luv that last reference, Jess!   

Funny, I don't see Ennis as being entirely 'in denial,' darlin' -- I see him more as, massively 'in rejection' -- of 'queers' and what he perceives to be the 'queer lifestyle.'

[janjo]

Or as my dear husband is fond of saying, " as straight as a dog's hind leg."

Although he is usually applying it to jobs around the home, like wonky shelves etc.

[Cally]

I like objective, reasonable answers such as this. Thank you, Sara.
However...

Your answer is somewhat flawed.

Considering the poor general oral hygiene of rural people during the period in question it could be taken as understood by Proulx, what with her no doubt detailed studies of Wyoming in the 1960s, that the breath of itinerant sheepherders stank to high heaven due to their inadequate (if any) dental care including, but not limited to, ignorance of (or unwillingness to use regularly, if at all) toothpicks, dental floss, Listerine, Colgate toothpaste, toothbrushes and tongue scrapers.

The mouth alone contains over 600 types of bacteria, many of which, in the right conditions, can produce foul odours.
Dental caries and gum and periodontal disease are also contributing factors to halitosis and hence to stinky saliva.
(I have access to far more information on this issue should it be required, including but not limited to, dietary factors, nasal infection, tonsil putrefaction and problems associated with the esophagus and the stomach.)

I could even go so far as to suggest that Proulx's later reference to "vast clouds of steam" is her oblique reference to the stench of Ennis's breath.
If so, it's no wonder that he stood as if "heart shot, face grey and deep-lined, grimacing, eyes screwed shut, fists clenched, legs caving..." when he smelt his own bad breath. 

So, Sara, I think that there could have been another reason: they kept their mouths shut when they engaged in sexual congress.
Actually, the more I think about it now, the more I wonder whether they felt nausea during the reunion kiss.
Perhaps that’s why they only ever kissed that one time, the time they got “carried away”—never before, and never after. 

It was enough to put them off kissing each other forever.

Hmm. American films often don’t seem to worry about period dental verisimilitude, nowadays, do they?
All those glaringly bright white teeth flashing away, blinding audiences.
What a relief it was to see the Coen brothers’ got it right, in True Grit. 

Am LOLling at this whole post, Paul!

(I'm not big on endearments words.)