Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter

[AZ.bbm]

Excuse me guys, but what would be so scary, so frightening, about them both being gay?

-Square pegs getting pounded into round holes, all those sharp edges flying round could be dangerous?!
 
And, there's a slight chance E & J's demonstrated indifference toward their spouses/family life could be mistaken as the stock attitude of marrieds who are gay, and that would hardly be fair, would it...?

[Paul029]

None of which (the SNIT spit-string# excluded) is evident in the film.

# In this case, however, the saliva is sadly not being used as a lubricant for anal intercourse.

The spit-string is very nice where it is, thank you - and anyway, who knows what was used later on? (Not really time to put in an order to the Basque, I suppose.)

Each to his/her own, Sara.  

Sorry about brief frivolous response to your complex post, Paul  .

That's okay. I'm delighted you were entertained.  

[Paul029]

A brief glimpse of Ennis lounging against the trailer is enough for him to sense fresh young meat for the taking. On the other hand, story Jack doesn’t cruise Ennis outside Aguirre’s trailer, nor is it stated that he attempts to pick up a rodeo clown. In other words we have no clues to the character’s sexual orientation....The film presents Jack as homosexual from the outset whereas, in the story, he’s heterosexual and initially does what is expedient.

I think we only saw Jack as flirting with Ennis if we had already been set up or predisposed to expect 'promiscuous behavior' from the outset... Frankly, I missed it, the cruising behavior that people often speak of, until someone here insisted that this is indeed what is occurring..

I don’t know about predisposition, but his fluttering eyelashes, bashful head lowering, and using his truck’s side mirror to check out Ennis were pretty clear signals. 

As you indicate, Jack didn't display any *real* 'homosexual behaviors' affectations, or inclinations until FNIT ...

In the story—but not in the film.

... and AFAIK, none at all past the reunion.

Not even his going to Mexico for what he needs?
Which he "hardly ever got" from Ennis during their twenty years?
In both story and film, Stan?

[Paul029]

But in the film we’ve been prepared for something like this to happen, so there’s no surprise.

-I was surprised!  -- And so was Oprah! 'We' thought it was entirely sudden   Speaking to HL &JG re FNIT, Oprah's asks in amazement, "Where did *that* come from??!"
So she too first watched the film as I did - from an unjaundiced perspective.


I’m somewhat saddened that you think my perspective was jaundiced. 

BTW, readers of the SS had some idea of what was about to occur, as well: e.g., In a little while their intimacy would deepen considerably...?

A coy prelude to what follows, akin to driving blithely along until another car comes suddenly, and at speed, out of nowhere.
As occurred in No Country for Old Men (first 10 seconds only).

Film Jack’s attempted pick up of the rodeo clown a few scenes later reinforces viewer opinion that Jack is homosexual, and that his tent behaviour occurred not by chance, but by design.

Where I come from, offering to buy a man a drink is not considered as "flirting" but a friendly gesture. Of course, far too much eye contact while you are making the offer to the stranger may be 'telling.'

Interpreting such an offer as “a friendly gesture” depends upon whether:
          a) the man making the offer had been seen previously as the recipient of anal intercourse on a cold moonlit night in a tent; and
          b) the man acting as the active partner in said anal intercourse had been earlier looked at "lecherously" (as you yourself said) by the recipient in question.

Over to you. 

[Paul029]

The film presentation of her characters’ sexuality, however, sees things differently: the SNIT scene presents, instead, two tender lovers who kiss and murmur endearments.
I doubt that this would be the kind of behaviour engaged in by young straight men, whether in isolated high country or not.

Again, I see your points; ...

Seeing someone else’s points is a good thing. 
It’s a starting point for discussion.

Far more preferable than instant dismissal, which stymies discussion from the outset. 

... no doubt that AL and the screen writers deliberately or intentionally 'sexed up' the screenplay to suit their purposes.

Getting into possibly dangerous waters, here. 
I’ll leave that for others to follow up if they so desire.

All I know is that the SNIT scene is inconsistent with what the story says about the summer sex post-FNIT.

If my interpretation of the text is in error, please advise where precisely such an interpretation is misguided.

(= an open offer to allcomers, including lurkers, as I welcome discussion.     )

Certainly, romantic behavior (e.g., SNIT) was totally out of character, but still, even as sentimental a hangout as SNIT was, it didn't possess sufficient 'magic' to radically change the men's primary orientations (whatever that was).. SNIT may have had the power to soften Ennis' heart to some extent but not to worry - later, at the Reunion, Ennis is a hard as ever, claiming to be caught in his own loop.

Ennis says that in the story’s reunion, but not in my copy of the screenplay.
In actual fact, he doesn't say it at all in the screenplay...
If I'm in error, please advise.

[Paul029]

I started by saying that Ennis was in an unclearly-defined ‘sexuality-zone.’ I think this true of the story, but not so in the case of the film.
It’s an easy way out to suggest that Ennis is homosexual in each of these, but I feel that the issue isn’t as cut and dried as that.

I agree, and too, I really don't know.

Thanks for that. 

If Ennis is a homosexual how can we explain his attraction to only one man in his entire life??! Mono-homo-mania (MHM)? How rare is that? -- Is that a condition listed in the DSM-IV? 

Sorry, but there seems to be some bias here.
 
Why not ask it another way, by asking an unloaded, neutral question, one not designed to provide a preferred answer?

e.g. "How can Ennis's attraction to one man, in his entire life, be explained?"

 

[Paul029]

The thing is that these are two different explanations for why he’s in fear of being identified as homosexual, and they subsequently represent a misalignment between the story and the film regarding his sexuality.

-Actually, a misalignment between film & story in how he 'copes' with or regards his sexuality, wouldn't you say? 

A leading question if ever I heard one, Stan.

I like to think of Ennis's sexuality per se  as separate & distinct from any of his possible 'neuroses.'  I would surmise that his fear is a symptom or consequence of his sense of personal integrity or self-esteem (threatened ego?), rather than as a factor shaping or altering his sexual orientation. (?)

Or it could be plain common sense, no neuroses involved at all.
How would anyone react when they thought they were in danger of being misunderstood?
His father showed him what happened to Earl.
Ennis is not Earl. He doesn't want to be seen as a "joke," or to have "remarks" passed.

Gee, he can't even eat cherry cake! 

[Paul029]

Excuse me guys, but what would be so scary, so frightening, about them both being gay?

Seriously.

We seem to be jumping through hoops here in order to make Jack and Ennis heterosexual.

Why?

I’m flattered that you seem concerned that my thoughts don’t agree with yours.
But if you’re going to “seriously” ask a question, may I suggest that in future you consider how it’s phrased?

While it’s admittedly taken me some time to resolve my thoughts about Ennis’s sexuality I felt it was preferable to do so after I’d considered the issue.

It’s easy enough to pop in and announce “They’re both gay,” as if it’s foregone conclusion, as some here like to do, and, by so doing, attempt to squash discussion—which, as I’ve been led to believe, has occurred successfully in the past.

This is the first time I’ve actually put forward my thoughts about Ennis’s sexuality, Jess, and in some detail.

So it’s a bit hard to be told that I’m scared or frightened of “them both being gay.” 

You seem to have lumped my comments about Jack and Ennis into the same ‘sexual-orientation basket.’ 

May I point out that in my Reply #247 it was clear that I felt that Jack was homosexual.

As far as Ennis’s sexuality is concerned, perhaps you could explain precisely where it is in my Reply #248 that indicated that I was scared and frightened?

What I wrote is what I think about the issue, and I believe that my thoughts were not only presented in some detail but also supported by evidence as found in Proulx’s text.

No-one has to agree with me.

Nor do I accuse others—when presenting their opinions—of seeming to be scared, or frightened or of jumping through hoops simply because they don’t agree with mine.

[Paul029]

Excuse me guys, but what would be so scary, so frightening, about them both being gay?

Seriously.

We seem to be jumping through hoops here in order to make Jack and Ennis heterosexual.

Why?

^^^ Same here. I've been following these ping pong exchanges all along but not participating because it feels like I'd have to make a real commitment to the thread (if I didn't want to be considered a drive-by) and I don't feel I have a personal stake in the final verdict (if there ever is one). I understand why Lyle takes this argument personally but not really why Paul and Stan do. At any rate, it's been entertaining reading if not especially enlightening.

It’s interesting that you haven’t participated because you felt to do so would require “a real commitment to the thread,” yet you now feel the need to make a ‘drive-by’ post—despite your reluctance to be considered as “a drive-by.”

That’s good!  

You say you’ve been following the exchanges between Stan and myself and found them entertaining rather than enlightening.
I can’t speak for Stan, and have no wish to, but as I was attempting to explain my point of view it’s disheartening to find that an "onlooker" found my efforts to be "unenlightening."  

Could you perhaps explain whether it was the fact that we were engaged in exchanging ideas between ourselves or whether it was the content of those ideas that you found to be entertaining?
(i.e. amusing, diverting, witty, charming, pleasing, delightful, interesting.)

I liked your reference to a “final verdict,” by the way, and agree that such, all things being equal, will be unlikely to occur.
 
And, like you, I personally don’t have a stake in it.
I just like the intellectualising involved in clarifying my thoughts to reach conclusions.

In the long run it doesn’t matter whether others agree with me or not.
It’s nice if they do, of course, but I don’t see the thread as a forum for debate, with one side trouncing the other, to resounding applause.

It’s just an exchange of views, with people being interested enough (hopefully) to contribute worthwhile points which can be added to the mix.

I notice that since my two long posts to Stan that the thread has had 150 ‘views,’ yet only Sara, Jess and yourself (and Stan, too, of course) have bothered to post anything, which says something (about what I don’t know).

Perhaps they prefer being entertained to being enlightened.  

[janjo]

Oh dear Paul, I didn't mean you to take it personally!

Annie Proulx said her characters were gay, she said she based them on a man she assumed to be gay watching the young men play pool, Ang Lee assumed them to be gay, as did Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana.
I think so too, and I have given the matter a lot of thought, particularly in the light of our recent dicussions here.
I really appreciate your thoughts, as always, and did not mean to be rude in any way, and I apologise if you misunderstood me.
But it does seem to me that these are two fictional characters who have been designed by their author(s) to be two gay men.
So why is there such a clamour here to prove that they weren't?

With respect, Paul, and Stan too.

[AZ.bbm]

If Ennis is a homosexual how can we explain his attraction to only one man in his entire life??! 

Sorry, but there seems to be some bias here.  Why not ask it another way, by asking an unloaded, neutral question, one not designed to provide a preferred answer? e.g. "How can Ennis's attraction to one man, in his entire life, be explained?"

-Yes, it does seem biased, although none was intended...

From what I understand from talking to gay people over the years, generally, the brethren who are very sexually active are known to have many partners, serial or multiple, within a lifetime.
Of course there are monogamous same-sex partnerships (-I was in one for years), still I can't say this mode is 'typical.' (?)

+I could amend the question to ask, 'If Ennis could be classified as a typical homosexual person, why only one man in his life?' -But then, what was 'typical' behavior for 'country-gay' brethren of that era..(?)

You're already aware that I consider Ennis to be sincerely in love but 'doing gay' rather than being gay (as we understand it, today).


+Also consider that Ennis had TWO women in his life (allegedly, and of whatever consequence), but only ONE man?! -- Granted, the little gal that wants to be a nurse or something  barged into Ennis's life, but still, the score is 2-to-1 in favor of heterosexuality  bi-sexuality.


Just stirring the pot a little.

[AZ.bbm]

Gee, he can't even eat cherry cake! 

]
Wow, the 'fruit cake' symbolism of that just hit me!

[Paul029]

Oh dear Paul, I didn't mean you to take it personally!

How else was I to take it, Jess?
I usually temper my comments and questions to avoid offence, and as I always take time to compose my replies I think I’m successful, more often that not.
Second thoughts are best, after all.

Annie Proulx said her characters were gay, she said she based them on a man she assumed to be gay watching the young men play pool, Ang Lee assumed them to be gay, as did Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana.

Quite a few assumptions, there, but nevertheless (and as you hopefully know) I go solely by what’s in the text, without the distraction of authorial commentary, whether before or after the fact (a single recent exception in Getting Movied excepted).
I prefer to use the author’s original unadulterated text as my source of information.

I think so too, and I have given the matter a lot of thought, particularly in the light of our recent dicussions here.

Yes, I understand that that is the case, you "old hand, you." 

I really appreciate your thoughts, as always, and did not mean to be rude in any way, and I apologise if you misunderstood me.

Perhaps you could ameliorate things by explaining what it is exactly (if you’re referring to my recent Replies #247 and #248 to Stan) in those posts that you appreciated, and in what ways they may (or may not) have influenced your own opinion/s?
Specific examples would be preferred, and you could also use footnoting (rather than nested quotes) if that would be of assistance when cross-referencing. 

But it does seem to me that these are two fictional characters who have been designed by their author(s) to be two gay men. So why is there such a clamour here to prove that they weren't?

While I speak only for myself, I was quite unaware that I was "clamouring." 

No-one here appears to take much notice of what I say, anyway.

Perhaps I should use a trumpet? 

With respect, Paul, and Stan too.

On behalf of myself I accept your apology.
Perhaps we could now just "discuss things?"

The dreaded onlookers have already had enough of a fine old entertaining time. 

Let’s bore them all to death. 

[AZ.bbm]

Annie Proulx said her characters were gay, she said she based them on a man she assumed to be gay watching the young men play pool, Ang Lee assumed them to be gay, as did Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana.
I think so too, and I have given the matter a lot of thought, particularly in the light of our recent dicussions here.

Hi, Jess,
Deferring to your assessment is what I'm inclined to do, so if you believe they were gay, then they were gay.

Good night, & would the last person to leave the stadium please turn out the lights?...



--But before we go, a few quick post-game wrap-up items:

1) In the SS, AP chose not to make it clear that Ennis was attracted to males, while making it abundantly clear that Jack was so inclined. Why do you think she took that tack? Did she not want the SS to be thoroughly gay for fear of turning off her readers?

2)  Do you believe that AP actually based her two leading men on an old guy she saw in a bar watching young guys play pool? -If so then how was Grams's persona reflected in E's character (-aside from his being one to hang out in bars)?

Also, if you're some old codger watching young guys play pool, absent downright leering, is that alone enough to signify that you are gay? -Do you feel that Grams's 'leering' (if you will) would have had the same significance if the old codger happened to be, say, the town's 'purveyor of jeans and other fine western gear?'

3) If all of the film's production people believed that E & J were gay, how is it then that HL & JG chose to portray them as two 'straight men who fell in love'..?

Too bad we don't have a legitmate authority on acting and film production with whom we could consult...

FWIW.

[Paul029]

Sorry, but there seems to be some bias here.  Why not ask it another way, by asking an unloaded, neutral question, one not designed to provide a preferred answer? e.g. "How can Ennis's attraction to one man, in his entire life, be explained?"

-Yes, it does seem biased, although none was intended...

No offence intended, Stan. It’s just the way my mind works. 
The requirements of intellectual discourse, you know—no trick questions an' all.

From what I understand from talking to gay people over the years, generally, the brethren who are very sexually active are known to have many partners, serial or multiple, within a lifetime.
Of course there are monogamous same-sex partnerships (-I was in one for years), still I can't say this mode is 'typical.' (?)

+I could amend the question to ask, 'If Ennis could be classified as a typical homosexual person, why only one man in his life?' -But then, what was 'typical' behavior for 'country-gay' brethren of that era..(?)

Try again. I refuse to be led by the nose. 

You're already aware that I consider Ennis to be sincerely in love but 'doing gay' rather than being gay (as we understand it, today).

+Also consider that Ennis had TWO women in his life (allegedly, and of whatever consequence), but only ONE man?! -- Granted, the little gal that wants to be a nurse or something  barged into Ennis's life, but still, the score is 2-to-1 in favor of heterosexuality  bi-sexuality.

Just stirring the pot a little.

Stir away for all it's worth, Stan, but until you let me know whether you're referring to the story or the film, I'll keep my own counsel.