Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter

[janjo]

I agree, I agree!

Thank you, thank you, Paul

[janjo]

Perhaps he is gay to some extent; but since he consorts with and has sexual liaisons with females as well as males I prefer that he be classed as a bisexual person, or as a  'straight doing gay'.. -To me that just seems more fair..

It is not just that he is capable of sexual liaisons with either sex, many men are, it is where his emotional loyalties lie that is important. He could have sex with a woman, but he fell head over heels in love with a man.
That must mean something surely?

[AZ.bbm]

If we’re going to refer to dustjacket blurbs to back up our opinions where will discussion go next?   

 
-There's always 'Twitter'...   ?! 

[Lyle (Mooska)]

-A suggestion: You might try not reducing marriage to merely an "act, per se"...
-Marriage is good "evidence" of love; and love is a very good "reason" to marry!

When you read stories of gay men of the past you can't discount the fact
that gay men used to feel enormous pressure to marry. Some still do.
(Rock Hudson, Charles Laughton, Tom Cruise, John Travolta anyone?) 
Therefore, in discussions of whether someone is gay or not, I'd say
marriage has relatively little to do in the area of evidence.

'Their  story' ?? - Haha! -- Who do you think you are, anyway, Danny Camacho??*   (*ref. last week's Topic of the Week)

I'm sure you know that I was quoting Annie Proulx's words who told about the letters
she received from gay men who said she'd written their story.  Then I made the observation
that you spend much time in these posts denying that. True? If you want to dismiss that
observation in the above fashion you may do so, but it's not "I" that said it was their story.
The letter writers said it.

[Lyle (Mooska)]

If we’re going to refer to dustjacket blurbs to back up our opinions where will discussion go next?    

 
-There's always 'Twitter'...   ?!  

Both of you may laughingly dismiss this, but it's a perfectly good observation point.
That it doesn't fit in with your memes must be why you treat it that way.

You chose to see that as some "blurb" from a dustjacket as though anyone had written it.
Which is not the case.  It's the way the edition was published and promoted to the world
by Annie Proulx's publisher. Are you saying they lied?  It's false advertising?  Are you saying
that Annie Proulx was or was not okay with this or doesn't even have anything to do with it?
Are you only dismissing it because it doesn't fit your own interpreations? Any of this is legitimate
to ask.  To dismiss it is telling me something.

Yes, they do become related—but the source material (despite an author’s accolades and
panegyrics about a subsequent film interpretation of his/her text) is the primary source, not
the secondary. For me, the original text is of paramount importance.

So, you only go by the Old Testament?  

Should we have two versions of this thread "Were they gay -- short story"
and "Were they gay -- film version?"  Should people who have never read the
story not be allowed in the discussion?

I prefer to work from that to deduce conclusions. The other way around is backwards reasoning.  
To use a secondary interpretation to explain, support or otherwise justify an opinion or concusion about the primary source is like comparing chalk and cheese, no matter how superb the qualities of either.

May I observe that it doesn't seem to bother you if someone's conclusions are the same as yours.
I don't see you conversely arguing a point from other sources if you agree with it. (I wouldn't either.)

What if the screenplay author is the same as the story author?  Would that make any difference?

Just to make myself perfectly clear, I’m not suggesting for a moment that the film,
in its own right, is flawed. As a stand-alone art work it's certainly effective—but it’s not
the same as the book.

As relates to this thread, does this mean that Jack & Ennis could be gay in the story
and not in the film or vice-versa?  Should something like that even be different in either
that it would be worth separating the two?  Is it only worth separating if it makes ones
points easier?

[Lyle (Mooska)]

By the way, Lyle, what are your thoughts on the expectations of society as far as Earl and Rich are concerned?

My thoughts wouldn't change depending on any particular individuals.

[AZ.bbm]

A few thoughts:

It is not just that he is capable of sexual liaisons with either sex, many men are, it is where his emotional loyalties lie that is important.
He could have sex with a woman, but he fell head over heels in love with a man.
That must mean something surely?

-Certainly, Jack's infatuation with Ennis del Mar would be suffused with meaning -- Winning Ennis' heart was an 'ideal' for Jack, just as was the ideal of winning back the affections of his own father...  He wanted the same thing from Ennis he wanted from OMT - if not love then mutual dependence.

2. I truly believe that Jack and Ennis shared one other thing: Like Ennis, Twist only needed men for sex, and a specific type of sex at that. Furthermore, he too only had a romantic interest in one man, Ennis del Mar. -Why do I think so? - Because even the charming, handsome ranch neighbor was unable to reach Jack's emotional core. Because Twist at his core was not really gay; he didn't need men in general. -You saw the evidence of that at the Childress Charity Ball - how uncomfortable Randall's flirting made Twist - so much so that he actually offered to dance with the guy's garrulous wife, Lashawn, in order to get away from the man's  "searching eyes," to discourage his nonverbal overtures... And later while outside on the bench, how nonchalantly did Twist act toward Malone? -I had thought that perhaps Randall Malone might not have been Twist's "type," but his quiet resemblance to Ennis del Mar was altogether too striking.


3. What would make Twist hang on so desperately to his dream of sharing his life with Ennis I do not know, but Jack was nothing if not persistent. -- I guess it was the same emotional mechanism (love?) that made him hold out hope that his old man would eventually come to appreciate how "special" he was.

[AZ.bbm]

When you read stories of gay men of the past you can't discount the fact
that gay men used to feel enormous pressure to marry. Some still do.
(Rock Hudson, Charles Laughton, Tom Cruise, John Travolta anyone?) 
Therefore, in discussions of whether someone is gay or not, I'd say
marriage has relatively little to do in the area of evidence.

-I would like to eventually read a story about gay men.
As for marriage, you are welcome to your opinions about its value/meaning, and even to dismiss the reality of it, if you choose to do so. -It's your prerogative.

I'm sure you know that I was quoting Annie Proulx's words who told about the letters
she received from gay men who said she'd written their story.  Then I made the observation
that you spend much time in these posts denying that. True? If you want to dismiss that
observation in the above fashion you may do so, but it's not "I" that said it was their story.
The letter writers said it.

I have empathy for gay people, especially after the things I myself had to endure because of my own s-s relationship and my stance concerning it.  The movie, this forum (and Jess' stories) were a godsend!
But does anyone gay or straight believe that AP actually wrote BBM to edify gays or to promote a gay agenda (whatever that is) ? because I was under the impression that she wrote Brokeback Mountain in order to highlight the injustices perpetrated by ignorant men.?
If it was a story about two gay men then I wonder why this talented writer fell silent about their formative sexuality when she could have made it abundantly clear in a single sentence, maybe even a single word. -- After all she spent entire paragraphs of her short story describing scenery and enumerating mountain ranges that the boys had visited (the latter to no end that I can see), yet hardly a word about their formative sexuality, except for Ennis' being traumatized by his own father.

With no evidence on hand to 'prove' that Ennis or Jack was 'inherently gay' and plenty to show that they were straight and if not 'straight' then 'N.E.G.'* (*not entirely gay), then objectively I can not as of yet agree with those who summarily claim that the two were gay.

[royandronnie]

2. I truly believe that Jack and Ennis shared one other thing: Like Ennis, Twist only needed men for sex, and a specific type of sex at that. Furthermore, he too only had a romantic interest in one man, Ennis del Mar.  Because Twist at his core was not really gay; he didn't need men in general.

But what do they need women for, then? Because they sure don't need 'em for either sex or love.

[AZ.bbm]

As Lyle alluded to, above, women are important to men as sources of companionship, comfort, intimacy, and inspiration.*


* + sanity, in many cases.

[bubba]

Ask Ricky Martin (who says he is gay)

    "I’ve slept with women and I’ve fallen in love with them and I’ve felt wonderful things…There was love, passion. I don’t regret anything, any of the relationships I’ve lived. They taught me a lot, both men and women equally."



Sorry off topic, me bad..

[AZ.bbm]

That's great. Except that would make him 'bi' not 'gay'...

Man #1:  That [Ennis] guy is queer! Look - he's headin to the mountains to have sex with his friend.

Man #2:  Nah, he ain't queer -- Other day I saw [Ennis] making out with some chick behind the Laundromat..!

Man #1:  -So?? -- Who you gonna believe: me, or your lyin eyes?? 

[bubba]

Except, he is saying he is gay not me.  Not bi, gay.


So you wonder why people get confused by Jack and Ennis (fictional characters) and their sexuality..

[AZ.bbm]

I can't relate to the confusion.. Martin may have actually 'gone over to the other team' so to speak, or, he may be just "doing gay" for sake of publicity, who is to say? -- I hear tell that the 'metro-sexual' rage is still going on in the Big Cities..?!

Back here in the 'hood, though, I would like to understand why it's so critical that Ennis & Jack have a particular orientation...

A question which has niggled me for years: In what specific way(s) would Ennis have loved Jack any more than he already did had he been intrinsically gay? -- and conversely if he were straight how would that aspect have attenuated their relationship?

If Ennis were indeed gay, would that have been the tipping point, the deciding factor, i.e.,  would Ennis have forsook hearth & home, every hope and dream and hetero bone in his body in order to "elope" with Twist to Denver..?

As you know, Fate, a.k.a. AP, hates a happy ending (or as Angelina Jolie puts it in the film Mr. & Mrs. Smith,    "-Happy endings are stories that aren't finished, yet..."

[Paul029]

Now that that's over, I apologise to Sara for perhaps appearing to be unneccesarily curt regarding her “small niggle,” and I’d like now to respond more appropriately to the point she made.

Did not stoop to comment on this yesterday but am now.....

Dammit!  

Perhaps my dyslexic fingers had "a mind of their own" in the heat of my ferocious typing.