Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter

[janjo]

A few thoughts:
-Certainly, Jack's infatuation with Ennis del Mar would be suffused with meaning -- Winning Ennis' heart was an 'ideal' for Jack, just as was the ideal of winning back the affections of his own father...  He wanted the same thing from Ennis he wanted from OMT - if not love then mutual dependence.

2. I truly believe that Jack and Ennis shared one other thing: Like Ennis, Twist only needed men for sex, and a specific type of sex at that. Furthermore, he too only had a romantic interest in one man, Ennis del Mar. -Why do I think so? - Because even the charming, handsome ranch neighbor was unable to reach Jack's emotional core. Because Twist at his core was not really gay; he didn't need men in general. -You saw the evidence of that at the Childress Charity Ball - how uncomfortable Randall's flirting made Twist - so much so that he actually offered to dance with the guy's garrulous wife, Lashawn, in order to get away from the man's  "searching eyes," to discourage his nonverbal overtures... And later while outside on the bench, how nonchalantly did Twist act toward Malone? -I had thought that perhaps Randall Malone might not have been Twist's "type," but his quiet resemblance to Ennis del Mar was altogether too striking.


3. What would make Twist hang on so desperately to his dream of sharing his life with Ennis I do not know, but Jack was nothing if not persistent. -- I guess it was the same emotional mechanism (love?) that made him hold out hope that his old man would eventually come to appreciate how "special" he was.

I obviously have a different interpretation of an infatuation than you do, Stan.
To me an infatuation is a "crush" a passing thing, often powerful and moving, but transient, and I have had many of them in my life. It is not what is indicated in the short story, or to be controversial, what Annie Proulx says about Jack and Ennis. She described their affair as a "once in a lifetime love," and I do think personally that what she says about her characters is of paramount importance. When I write, I am God as far as what happens in the world I have created, it is the ultimate power trip, the characters do what I want them to do, they have no life without me, and Annie Proulx is I feel sure no different, apart from the fact that she is a genius and I am not.

I don't, in the light of this, see what was between Jack and Ennis as an infatuation, but as a fully formed, life long love affair.

In view of this I find it hard to think that Jack or Ennis only wanted each other for sex, that is not at all what is indicated to me, and as this is a short story so is necessarily "spare" in the writing, I don't feel that we have enough information to conclude that they only had one kind of sex, most people try all sorts of things, why would they be any different?
Jack didn't want Randall, because he was in love with Ennis, and found a man who was "Ennis but without the problems," was not what he wanted. He didn't want just any man, he wanted Ennis, because he was his true love, his soul mate. This may be because Jack and Ennis are designed by their author to complement each other perfectly in psychological terms, and because they are in many ways codependent, but that is the basis of many love affairs.
Sex with Randall would have been an empty experience for Jack, not that Jack was averse to empty sexual experiences, he would take that if Ennis was not available, but it didn't satisfy his needs in the way Ennis did, because his love for him was based on much more than sex.

The fact that Ennis, and Jack's father, both had psychological  problems in their relationships with Jack, is of course not accidental, but part of the authors design for her characters and their love affair.

[Paul029]

Jack didn't want Randall, because he was in love with Ennis, and found a man who was "Ennis but without the problems," was not what he wanted. He didn't want just any man, he wanted Ennis, because he was his true love, his soul mate. This may be because Jack and Ennis are designed by their author to complement each other perfectly in psychological terms, and because they are in many ways codependent, but that is the basis of many love affairs.

Well put, Jess.

Sex with Randall would have been an empty experience for Jack, not that Jack was averse to empty sexual experiences, he would take that if Ennis was not available, but it didn't satisfy his needs in the way Ennis did, because his love for him was based on much more than sex.

And anonymous Mexicans wouldn't involve 'complications'...

[janjo]

Absolutely Paul. An anonymous Mexican would be just like taking a pill for what ails you. Quick, temporarily curative, and no complications.

[bubba]

If Ennis were indeed gay, would that have been the tipping point, the deciding factor, i.e.,  would Ennis have forsook hearth & home, every hope and dream and hetero bone in his body in order to "elope" with Twist to Denver..?

Again, how can we say?   Remember Bridges of Madison County, she didn't leave.  And I may be alone but I respected her for that decision.

Not every man or woman up and leaves a family!


I couldn't see Ennis walking off into the sunset with Jack (or anyone else) and leaving Alma and the girls when they were young.


.

[AZ.bbm]

(...)To me an infatuation is a "crush" a passing thing, often powerful and moving, but transient, and I have had many of them in my life. I don't, in the light of this, see what was between Jack and Ennis as an infatuation, but as a fully formed, life long love affair.

Re 'infatuate', defined as, "to inspire or possess with a foolish or unreasoning passion, as of love."
Ultimately, Jack Twist admitted to himself and his friend that fifteen-odd years of driving thousands of miles a year just to tug on Ennis' short leash was unreasonable and foolish.
Twist knew that no matter how much he loved sex with Ennis or how good he could make it for him, it would never be enough to get Ennis over the hump (-no pun intended)... But more importantly, Jack found himself powerless to let go of his love-turned-addiction to Ennis. -Caught between a rock named Ennis and a hard place called Unrequited Love, it is my feeling that Twist chose to drink himself to death as the way out of his misery. -Gotta hand it to AP, though, an accident on a deserted, lonely highway is one very logical, albeit inauspicious, outcome for a man in that position.

[AP] described their affair as a "once in a lifetime love," and I do think personally that what she says about her characters is of paramount importance. ...

Sorry, Jess, but I like to consider the FILM to be the last word on BBM. The secondary/tertiary opinions of the actors who take it upon themselves to enliven the characters (to perfection) are of paramount importance to me...
Despite AP's and Ossana's explanations about Ennis' and Jack's sexual orientation to H.Ledger and J.Gyllenhaal on the set, both consistently held that the characters that they brought to life in BBM were "two straight men who fell in love."
Don't forget that Ms. Proulx heaped critical praise upon both Heath and Jake for their magnificent interpretations of her characters.  In fact, she remarked that Heath understood Ennis better than she did! -AFAIK, never once did she ever take exception to any of HL's and JG's viewpoints re BBM.

In view of this I find it hard to think that Jack or Ennis only wanted each other for sex,... I don't feel that we have enough information to conclude that they only had one kind of sex, most people try all sorts of things, why would they be any different?

-Reminiscent of c.f., "kiss or no-kiss" - I and you are both progressive when it comes to defining the scope or extending the sweep of real life romance.    Unfortunately, I don't think that we have that kind of wide latitude, here. Anal sex & kissing are all we have to go on...

Jack didn't want Randall, because he was in love with Ennis, and found a man who was "Ennis but without the problems," was not what he wanted. He didn't want just any man, he wanted Ennis, because he was his true love, his soul mate. This may be because Jack and Ennis are designed by their author to complement each other perfectly in psychological terms, and because they are in many ways codependent, but that is the basis of many love affairs.

-Okay; fair enough. 
One could surmise that Jack loved Ennis... However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that they were "in love." There were no pronouncements, after all, ever. Don't most people say I love you at least once to the loves of their lives, maybe in private, or way out in the wilderness??  Originally, I recall thinking, What is wrong with this these two...?! (i.e., before I read the SS)

Sex with Randall would have been an empty experience for Jack, not that Jack was averse to empty sexual experiences,...

-LOL  

... he would take that if Ennis was not available, but it didn't satisfy his needs in the way Ennis did, because his love for him was based on much more than sex.

-So, then, upon what, exactly, would you say that Jack's love for Ennis was predicated?

The fact that Ennis, and Jack's father, both had psychological  problems in their relationships with Jack, is of course not accidental, but part of the authors design for her characters and their love affair.

Yes, indeed, and I think AP wanted to show that Jack had a 'felt shortage' of paternal affection, which he hoped to fill via having anal sex with random men. (Possibly, a couple of other fetishes, as well.)

[Lyle (Mooska)]

-I would like to eventually read a story about gay men.
As for marriage, you are welcome to your opinions about its value/meaning,
and even to dismiss the reality of it, if you choose to do so. -It's your prerogative.

When talking about gay men, I do dismiss marriage as a defacto reason of proof that someone
is straight or not.  There are too many instances of people marrying because of societal pressures
to do so for me to take it as defacto proof of anyone's being straight or gay.  And I have given
examples of that both real and fictional.  There's all sorts of reasons that people have married over
the decades.  It can't be used to prove anything about someone.

Somehow your marriage mantra reminds me of the people who don't want gay people
to marry. (And this doesn't mean I think you think that.) They have this idea of what
marriage is and it certainly doesn't include us no matter what. In fact, if gay people marry
they think it actually harms the institution of marriage.  How's that for value/meaning?

But does anyone gay or straight believe that AP actually wrote BBM to edify gays or to promote a gay agenda (whatever that is) ? because I was under the impression that she wrote Brokeback Mountain in order to highlight the injustices perpetrated by ignorant men.?

In what she has decscribed as her initial inspiration for writing the story, none of that
would be indicated.

If it was a story about two gay men then I wonder why this talented writer fell silent about their formative sexuality when she could have made it abundantly clear in a single sentence, maybe even a single word. -- After all she spent entire paragraphs of her short story describing scenery and enumerating mountain ranges that the boys had visited (the latter to no end that I can see), yet hardly a word about their formative sexuality, except for Ennis' being traumatized by his own father.

If I sat down to write a story about two straight men or two gay men I don't think I'd even
think about having to actually state anything of the sort so specifically.  I have to think that
because the screenwriter herself, Diania Ossana, thinks it's a no-brainer that they're gay, and
she had contact with Annie Proulx that if they were not Annie Proulx would have wanted to
correct this huge assumption on Diana's part before they wrote it or would have proclaimed the
movie to have falsified her intentions.  Larry McMurtry has also said that they discussed the idea
of why straight women want to marry gay men, so I'm assuming he thought they were gay, too.
How could these two accomplished writers get such information wrong if it's not true or what
Proulx had intended?  That, seems to me, would be a huge problem.

With no evidence on hand to 'prove' that Ennis or Jack was 'inherently gay' and plenty to show that they were straight and if not 'straight' then 'N.E.G.'* (*not entirely gay), then objectively I can not as of yet agree with those who summarily claim that the two were gay.

This is why Liberace won two libel suits against him in two countries.
Two magazines published stories about him implying he was a homosexual.

[AZ.bbm]

... An anonymous Mexican would be just like taking a pill for what ails you. Quick, temporarily curative, and no complications.

My backseat driver insists that there is no such thing as an "anonymous" Mexican...

 

[AZ.bbm]

When talking about gay men, I do dismiss marriage as a defacto reason of proof that someone
is straight or not.  There are too many instances of people marrying because of societal pressures
to do so for me to take it as defacto proof of anyone's being straight or gay.  And I have given
examples of that both real and fictional.  There's all sorts of reasons that people have married over
the decades.  It can't be used to prove anything about someone.

2. Somehow your marriage mantra reminds me of the people who don't want gay people
to marry. (And this doesn't mean I think you think that.) They have this idea of what
marriage is and it certainly doesn't include us no matter what. In fact, if gay people marry
they think it actually harms the institution of marriage.  How's that for value/meaning?
 

3. In what she has decscribed as her initial inspiration for writing the story, none of that
would be indicated.

4. If I sat down to write a story about two straight men or two gay men I don't think I'd even
think about having to actually state anything of the sort so specifically.  I have to think that
because the screenwriter herself, Diania Ossana, thinks it's a no-brainer that they're gay, and
she had contact with Annie Proulx that if they were not Annie Proulx would have wanted to
correct this huge assumption on Diana's part before they wrote it or would have proclaimed the
movie to have falsified her intentions.  Larry McMurtry has also said that they discussed the idea
of why straight women want to marry gay men, so I'm assuming he thought they were gay, too.
How could these two accomplished writers get such information wrong if it's not true or what
Proulx had intended?  That, seems to me, would be a huge problem.


5. This is why Liberace won two libel suits against him in two countries.
Two magazines published stories about him implying he was a homosexual.

--
1. I will always insist that marriage is "proof of something."  -Bank on that, sir.

2. I'm left wondering what in my response to (what I regard as) an insult to the institution of marriage could be seen by a reasonable person as invoking a "mantra"...


+ Update: Ordinary people who think of marriage  these days are not thinking exclusively of oppo-sex couples, anymore.


3. By any chance, did AP's "initial inspiration" include any mention of which sex(es) Ennis and Jack were attracted to, as boys/adolescents..?


4. I would agree that it is social bias which compels us to mention the sexes of the intended parties to a marriage.

4a.  I'm not overly concerned about the opinions of the author/screenwriters re the boys sexual identities.  I mean, after all, these were three heterosexuals, officiating over 'Who is gay?' debates?? -
In most cases, when a hetero person hears about ANY same-sex situation, they typically and with extreme prejudice blindly assume that the two parties involved are 'gay'..?! -Often, there are no 'shades of gray' on tap. --IMHO, in most case their opinions on the matter of 'who is gay' can be safely discounted due to 'heterosexual bias.'

As I stated in a previous post, I'm going with the actors' assessment of the men they were portraying - i.e., two straight men who fell in love.

5.  How does that relate to Jack or Ennis in BBM?


*Happy Memorial Day, everyone! *

[Lyle (Mooska)]

--
1. I will always insist that marriage is "proof of something."  -Bank on that, sir.

Agree, it is proof of something, but using the fact someone married alone to prove
someone is straight or not gay isn't really proof at all.

2. I'm left wondering what in my response to (what I regard as) an insult to the institution of marriage could be seen by a reasonable person as invoking a "mantra"...

Mantra as in oft repeated.  You often state that because Jack and/or Ennis married that this
is proof they were not or N.E. gay, and I dismiss that notion for the reasons I've oft repeated.

+ Update: Ordinary people who think of marriage  these days are not thinking exclusively of oppo-sex couples, anymore.

Ordinary people are parsing marriage into same-sex marriage or gay marriage or traditional marriage or whatever
else they can think of so as to be non-inclusive. Most gay people just still think of it as the same thing they've
always thought of it as, marriage.

3. By any chance, did AP's "initial inspiration" include any mention of which sex(es) Ennis and Jack were attracted to, as boys/adolescents..?

Her initial inspiration was observing an older man watching younger men play pool.

4. I would agree that it is social bias which compels us to mention the sexes of the intended parties to a marriage.
On the other hand I'm not overly concerned about the opinions of the author/screenwriters re the boys sexual identities.  I mean, after all, these were three heterosexuals, officiating over a 'who is gay' debate?? -In most cases, when a straight person hears about ANY same-sex situation, don't they typically and with extreme prejudice blindly assume that the two parties involved are 'gay'..?! --IMHO, in most case their opinions on the matter of 'who is gay' can be safely discounted due to 'heterosexual bias.'

As I stated in a previous post, I'm going with the actors' assessment of the men they were portraying - i.e., two straight men who fell in love.

Novelist Brent Hartinger analyzed some of the discussion about the sexual orientations of the characters, writing for AfterElton.com. Hartinger personally "felt it inconceivable" that the characters could be considered bisexual and not gay because the film consistently showed their dissatisfaction with their heterosexual partners and deep emotional and physical fulfilment with one another. Hartinger added that Del Mar insists on anal sex with his wife, and Twist seeks out other males for sex outside of his marriage when Del Mar is not available. Hartinger puts down efforts to describe the characters as bisexual to a mixture of bisexuals who misunderstand "what it means to be gay" and some who rightfully feel starved of media representations of bisexuality. For Hartinger, the actors' opinions of "straight guys who just happened to fall in love" seems to come more from Gyllenhaal and Ledger's stated acting method rather than an assessment of the text.

From the article: "Ask the Flying Monkey: Why Doesn’t the Fem Guy Ever Chase the Butch One?"
http://www.afterelton.com/askmonkey/12-13-2010?page=0%2C2

5.  How does that relate to Jack or Ennis in BBM?

A public example of pressure, societal or otherwise) gay men felt to get married:


It relates to this discussion because I could imagine you or Stan on the jury and
convincing people that Liberace might be bisexual, which would then make the articles
in the magazines saying he was homosexual inaccurate and therefore libelous.

[AZ.bbm]

Agree, it is proof of something, but using the fact someone married alone to prove
someone is straight or not gay isn't really proof at all.

-There are no absolutes, of course. -Wearing a frock doesn't necessarily mean you're a 'man of God,' either, although the probability that you are is pretty high. 
Marital fraud is a fact of life, but I certainly wouldn't let the possibility of it warp my views of th e institution. -In other words, avoid letting the exception become the rule.

Mantra as in oft repeated.  You often state that because Jack and/or Ennis married that this
is proof they were not or N.E. gay, and I dismiss that notion for the reasons I've oft repeated.

-No, actually I've never said it was "proof" they are heterosexual, although you may have inferred that it was from my posts. 
I've maintained only that Ennis & Jack's marriages rank as a good, leading indicator of their basic, heterosexual orientation, not foolproof by any means.
Amazingly very few who typically engage in what I call 'gay fundamentalist thinking' are willing to take the boys' marriages into consideration to ANY degree, whatsoever, insisting that they are total shams, even as far as to insist that children born to these couples were not products of love, not much more than the spawn of Satan, I guess.... AFAIC, that's swinging the pendulum way too far, don't you think? Yes, this has been my finding.
 

Ordinary people are parsing marriage into same-sex marriage or gay marriage or traditional marriage or whatever
else they can think of so as to be non-inclusive. Most gay people just still think of it as the same thing they've
always thought of it as, marriage.

That's the way I think of it, too --  the formal commitment to the partner of your choice.

+ I believe that everyone is bi-sexual to some extent; but often choose to identify with one team or another. The ones who don't think so might be tested for certainty.- Not that it matters.

Her initial inspiration was observing an older man watching younger men play pool.

Oh, yes... -- I do seem to recall AP discussing that particular phantasm --retroactively! Recall, too that she said she'd never fallen in love with any of her characters, too, before admitting that she had indeed fallen for both Ennis and Jack.
 
Why, I would like to know, could she not bring herself to put  the subtlest of clues such as that one in the story, say, a mention of Ennis or Jack watching guys play pool, shoving those big long sticks at those big, round balls. 
Anyway, AP's phantasm is still only extra-curricular data; movie-goers got NO hint of Jack or Ennis ever identifying as homosexual person, in fact, quite the contrary, they were told explicitly by the leads themselves that they were not queer.... Now, had Heath jumped out of that 18-wheeler in Signal counting a stack of $20 bills, wearing a freaky smile on his face?........

Novelist Brent Hartinger analyzed some of the discussion about the sexual orientations of the characters, writing for AfterElton.com. Hartinger personally "felt it inconceivable" that the characters could be considered bisexual and not gay because the film consistently showed their dissatisfaction with their heterosexual partners ...

-Interesting take. -Now, see this:

• American Sexuality Magazine: Sex educator Amy Andre: (emphasis added)
  “Brokeback Mountain is a NOT a movie about gay people, and there are no gay people in it. There, I said it.
  
  "Despite what you may have read..in reviews... Brokeback Mountain is a bisexual picture.... I am unaware of a single review of Brokeback calling the leads what they are -- bisexual -- a sad statement on the invisibility of bisexual experience and the level of bi-phobia in both the mainstream and gay media. ...
  
  "Why can't film reviewers say the word 'bisexual' when they see lead characters in sexual and romantic relationships with both men and women?    

*Nice shot of Liberace, BTW.

[janjo]

Quote from Stan

Sorry, Jess, but I like to consider the FILM to be the last word on BBM. The secondary/tertiary opinions of the actors who take it upon themselves to enliven the characters (to perfection) are of paramount importance to me...
Despite AP's and Ossana's explanations about Ennis' and Jack's sexual orientation to H.Ledger and J.Gyllenhaal on the set, both consistently held that the characters that they brought to life in BBM were "two straight men who fell in love."
Don't forget that Ms. Proulx heaped critical praise upon both Heath and Jake for their magnificent interpretations of her characters.  In fact, she remarked that Heath understood Ennis better than she did! -AFAIK, never once did she ever take exception to any of HL's and JG's viewpoints re BBM.

Reply by Janjo


I can't quite understand this, how can an interpretation by actors be the definitive view? An actor tries hard to understand what the author intends and to portray those characters as honestly as possible. Heath and Jake were very fine actors and gave masterly interpretations, but the characters themselves belong to the author, they are her creations. Actors re-interpret Shakespeare all the time, but the work is still Shakespeare's.

As to what Jack's feelings regarding Ennis were if it wasn't just for the sex, (a thought I refute utterly), he was in love with him! What is the difference between love and sex? A million miles I would have thought. Of course they enjoyed the sex, but they loved each others company, they came alive when they were with each other, they were friends, Jack drove 1500 miles on a regular basis to spend time with Ennis, if he just wanted sex, why bother? There must have been another willing gay man nearer than that.
They were designed by AP to perfectly complement each other psychologically and emotionally, and Jack's need for his father's approval being translated to Ennis is part of that. But that need, that want, is often part of relationships, and certainly doesn't mean that they weren't in love.

[royandronnie]

Despite AP's and Ossana's explanations about Ennis' and Jack's sexual orientation to H.Ledger and J.Gyllenhaal on the set, both consistently held that the characters that they brought to life in BBM were "two straight men who fell in love."
Don't forget that Ms. Proulx heaped critical praise upon both Heath and Jake for their magnificent interpretations of her characters.  In fact, she remarked that Heath understood Ennis better than she did! -AFAIK, never once did she ever take exception to any of HL's and JG's viewpoints re BBM.{/quote]

I'm afraid there were more mundane reasons that Heath and Jake protested E&J weren't reeeeeally gay, and that Annie didn't have a cow when they so protested: their careers. It's a little hard to remember now, but Brokeback was all alone out by itself when it was being shot in 2004. I'm sure Heath at least would later have laughed at himself saying that, but they knew they were risking a lot with the sex and kissing scenes, and Annie understood them, I'm sure. It's a sad fact that if H&J had declared firmly "they were gay," many people--including casting directors and producers--would have looked at those scenes and gone "Hmm. Then H&J must be gay too. Not sure I should cast them as action heroes," etc.

[Paul029]

~~~An actor tries hard to understand what the author intends and to portray those characters as honestly as possible. Heath and Jake were very fine actors and gave masterly interpretations, but the characters themselves belong to the author, they are her creations. Actors re-interpret Shakespeare all the time, but the work is still Shakespeare's.

I totally agree, Jess.  

[morrobay]

Then, the summer passed, and while he never thought about another man, he didn’t forget the days with Jack Twist during that singular time, but relived them in his memory.

In a way, he had a religious experience, the like of which he’d never experienced before.

I don't know about "religious"...

But the sentimentalist in me loves that line (bold)

[Cally]

If not religious, at least spiritual - however down to earth and physical the sex was, they were on another plane, flying in the euphoric air, where the rules of this world about what you could do and what labels of sexuality could be put on them no longer applied. (Though we, the readers, are unpleasantly aware that the the real world, in the shape of Aguirre's binoculars, was not as far away as it seemed.)