Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis) - Next chapter

[killersmom]

Repeating Dave's first post when he originally opened the thread in December 2005:

Feel free to discuss this in main discussion, but for those who want to delve deeper, or keep at it or make sure you are heard on this topic, go at it here.

I'll kick it off with my opinion. Gay? God yes.

Update, Jan 8, 2006:

Two things:

I have been asked to

1. expand the question to: were they gay, straight or bisexual?

2. define gay.

Both reasonable requests. I should have included the bi option to start. I added it to the poll--feel free to change your vote if you wanted that option before but it was missing.

Well, 300+ posts in is a bit late for a definition, and you're all free to define it any way you like, but what I meant by gay was: Is the guy primarily attracted to men, sexually (i.e., much more toward men than women).

I use it synonomously with homosexual, a word rarely used in ordinary conversation these days. I had assumed gay had more or less replaced it. I definitely wasn't referring to how masculine vs. effeminate they were, or how they self-identified. I'm interested in what we think they really were inside, not what they were or were not willing to admit out loud at any point in their lives.

I was kind of stunned to see how many definitions of gay are running around out there. That was an eye opener. I've learned a lot.

You're free to use my definition or reject it and discuss our boys in terms of another.

Since I'm here, though, a few more words on the definitions that have come up:

I was particlarly taken aback to hear that Kinsey defined sexuality in terms of behavior, instead of attraction. Very foolhardy. Like Freud, he hurtled the field infinintely forward, but the disadvantage of starting from almost zero is you're likely to get a hell of a lot wrong. Kinsey was a scientist and adamant about looking at sexuality scientifically, like other natural phenomena. If you just measured how much a person was doing something, you could rank them on a scale. How silly was that? Especially when dealing with a taboo: why on earth would he think most people would be acting the way they wanted to? If a closted homo who craves men men men gets married to a woman and never strays but never likes it, behavior would classify that guy as a 0, fully straight. Assinine.

Which is what this film is all about, right? People driven one way by their own instincts, pulled another by society. We know what society made Jack and Ennis do. It seems to me the question is: what were their real drives?

[andy]

Perhaps, in order for our two make-pretend guys to have the kinda life we all want them to have, most of us define them as gay, thereby removing as many obstacles as possible that would hinder their dream. God knows, they had enough of them.

Thanks for the catch-up Linda. No mean feat in this thread of a million pages and interpretations!

[janjo]

I am still concerned about men who so enjoy anal sex with another man that they seek it out regularly, insisting that they are straight. It is indicative at the very least that a person who "does gay," "is gay", at least to a considerable extent, and their protests to the contrary are really not that believable.

[Cally]

Repeating Dave's first post when he originally opened the thread in December 2005:

...........


I'll kick it off with my opinion. Gay? God yes.

...........

This makes me smile - brief and to the point.

[AZ.bbm]

Jess,

I am still concerned about men who so enjoy anal sex with another man that they seek it out regularly, insisting that they are straight. It is indicative at the very least that a person who "does gay," "is gay", at least to a considerable extent, and their protests to the contrary are really not that believable.

Jess,
Somehow, I manage to enjoy cupcakes without identifying with the baker or wanting to hang out with him...?

[janjo]

I am not saying you are gay though, you are bi sexual and should be very proud of that fact.
People only deny being gay because they are ashamed of it, which they ought not to be.

Off to eat a cupcake!

[AZ.bbm]

haha!   

So, how do we distinguish between those who simply enjoy eating the occasional cupcake from those who want to   eat   marry the baker? 

[Cally]

Jess,

Jess,
Somehow, I manage to enjoy cupcakes without identifying with the baker or wanting to hang out with him...?

An entertaining but seems to me shaky analogy .

[andy]

So, does this little short I just discovered on utube go any way towards settling anything, I wonder?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHEQytE8dME&feature=relmfu

[AZ.bbm]

@Sara,    Okay, I have to agree, the cupcake analogy was a *little* shaky.   


@Andy, <cue soap opera preview music>  "Did Thomas really turn gay last Christmas??" ... ..."Will Jorgen be turned, now that he's had gay sex with Thomas? 

[atruant]

So, does this little short I just discovered on utube go any way towards settling anything, I wonder?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHEQytE8dME&feature=relmfu

I wouldn't think so...

[andy]

@Sara,    Okay, I have to agree, the cupcake analogy was a *little* shaky.   


@Andy, <cue soap opera preview music>  "Did Thomas really turn gay last Christmas??" ... ..."Will Jorgen be turned, now that he's had gay sex with Thomas? 

I suspect the translation of the above highlighted is questionable. Any speakers around of whatever the language was?

[janjo]

Oh those Scandinavians!

[AZ.bbm]

 

Yes, being the whip that I am, it took mere minutes for me to realize that Thomas was being sarcastic when he told Jorgen that he "turned gay last Xmas".. lol! 

Jorgen's response was cute, too, along the lines of,"So that's what you got for Xmas?" 

[AZ.bbm]

So, had Thomas revealed his and Jorgen's tryst, instead of giving a toast, I assume that Jorgen would from then on be regarded as a homosexual, without question.   And, his past, current or future affairs, his fantasies regarding the opposite sex, and all manifestations of his heterosexuality would from that time forward be suspect, simply fodder for les accusateurs...

It's still amazing to me that a guy (or gal) who doesn't 'think the gay way', who doesn't want to BE gay, who doesn't want to be regarded by others as gay, somehow after a single same-sex encounter, can suddenly become magically gay...?!

Even if he has same-sex relations for the balance of his life, but his heart's not in it, does he really qualify? - I wonder how many light bulbs will he have to install before les accusateurs would 'qualify' him as an electrician?