Character Analysis of Jack Twist

[o2binla]

Jack does not seem to have the nurturing side that Ennis does-and indeed, he was not nurtured, obviously. His father is a cruel beast; his mother a long-suffering, laconic Penteostal woman, who taught Jack more or less to suffer in silence, where the old man was concerned.

thoughts on this?

CSI, I disagree.  I think the story/film shows Jack as the nurturer ("... loved a little dog"), and Ennis as the one needing to be nurtured.  Not that this is unilateral and they never switched roles, of course... the DE shows Jack wanting/needing to be nurtured too, and getting precious little of that from Ennis.  But I think Jack was ready to love Ennis as much as Ennis would allow.  Despite the general crappiness of his upbringing, Jack had a warm heart. 

[CANSTANDIT]

We are told at work, and remember that I work with dyslexics everyday, that dyslexia is not a learning difficulty, but a learning difference. Dyslexics have defecits in some areas of the way that they learn, perhaps tending to a more kinesthetic or aural approach to learning than a visual one. They are not regarded as having an illness, but rather as having brains that work slightly differently to the average one.
It is thought that in the average brain there is a large language area on one side of the brain and a small language area on the other side. In dyslexics there are language areas of similar size, one in each hemisphere of the brain.
Although this often confers a difficulty in learning to read in the standard ways that children are taught, there is often a corresponding increase in visual and spatial awareness that leads people with dyslexia to be more artistic and creative than the average person.

In the "business" shall we say, that is why although dyslexics are given special help, they are regarded as being different rather than learning disabled.

I'm not talking about how the kids are treated, or the need to not label people. I'm all for making sure kids don't feel segregated in a negative way.  Perhaps our educational or medical systems simply define it differently.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dyslexia/dyslexia.htm

 I just don't think altering a label changes what something is, at it's core, ie, a condition with systemic 'treatments'. Another discussion for another thread.
My point was really comparing the two as similiar 'differences' . I think that is dangerous ground, myself. That's all.

I'd buy it myself, if someone was saying they were seen as things that set people apart-I agree with that, and I think that is the part of the point of the story. But in themselves, are simply an apple and an orange.

[CANSTANDIT]

Jack does not seem to have the nurturing side that Ennis does-and indeed, he was not nurtured, obviously. His father is a cruel beast; his mother a long-suffering, laconic Penteostal woman, who taught Jack more or less to suffer in silence, where the old man was concerned.

thoughts on this?

CSI, I disagree.  I think the story/film shows Jack as the nurturer ("... loved a little dog"), and Ennis as the one needing to be nurtured.  Not that this is unilateral and they never switched roles, of course... the DE shows Jack wanting/needing to be nurtured too, and getting precious little of that from Ennis.  But I think Jack was ready to love Ennis as much as Ennis would allow.  Despite the general crappiness of his upbringing, Jack had a warm heart. 

Oh, yes, he indeed had a heart that shows itself in the DE-we are kept from it, up to that point, beyond the puppies. We also find out he ministered to Ennis, so yeah, you have a good point. I thought of that as I posted, and wondered how that would be responded to.
 I guess what I mean is, he does not have the model for nurturing of a child that Ennis seems to have got from his mother. So let me correct it and say that by nature, he may indeed be nurturing; by nurture, well, he has not had a good model, so where might that leave Bobby? Granted, we don't know how Bobby fared... I could be totally off.....

I do think though, that Ennis is very, very nurturing-I'd disagree he is any less so than Jack.  I think it is part of the mothering in him that is such a dichotomy to how he sees himself. He'd die if he knew someone might see him as maternal-yet he very much is, I think. And the DE scene shows us this, IMO.

[Rosewood]

Would it be a deliberate lie?  Seems unlikely - Jack could work the ages out if he wanted  And the child support could be a backlog I suppose.  But it's become a well-worn excuse, although Ennis really has been ground down by being broke all the time, and must resent J's affluence to some extent.

I've always thought that the '...you ever hearda child support?' line was definitely meant as a nasty dig.
As if Jack might have forgotten that Ennis was dirt poor and here, at least, was one of the reasons why:
Ennis DEVOTION to his girls. As opposed to Jack's supposed laissez faire about his son.
Look how much better I am - Ennis propping himself up.
Look how much better I am, I, at least, love my kids and support them though it is hard enough.
You were ready to run out on your boy at the slightest drop of a hat.
You even told me you never wanted kids. I ALWAYS wanted my kids. I love my girls.
I've supported them all these years. I did MY duty.
VERY unfair of Ennis, but very in character.

I also think that 'child support' was cumulative. In other words, even IF Ennis had already stopped the
payments or was getting close to it, the cumulative effect of years of child support had taken their toll.
I stand before you, a poor man who did the 'right' thing.

Yeah, right by everyone BUT Jack.

It amazes me that Jack doesn't lunge at him and knock him to the ground.
But I understand that by then, Jack is exhausted by all of it.
He loves Ennis, but he is tired of having to DEAL with him.
Though that doesn't mean he'll stop.

[CANSTANDIT]

^^^^^^^
Re; It amazes you Jack doesn't lunge at him and knock him to the ground.....do I detect some, uh, annoyance?   

Jack is after all a bit shorter; maybe that stops him. 

I know just how you feel, Rose; that remark, like the 'once burned' crap he gives Alma is  part of his very human foibles list, but nonetheless, we all, at different times, have been on the receiving end of a lover's excuses, male or female, no doubt. So we all can relate, to some extent, especially in light of how many damned years have been committed to this relationship.

[george66]

Would it be a deliberate lie?  Seems unlikely - Jack could work the ages out if he wanted  And the child support could be a backlog I suppose.  But it's become a well-worn excuse, although Ennis really has been ground down by being broke all the time, and must resent J's affluence to some extent.

I've always thought that the '...you ever hearda child support?' line was definitely meant as a nasty dig.
As if Jack might have forgotten that Ennis was dirt poor and here, at least, was one of the reasons why:
Ennis DEVOTION to his girls. As opposed to Jack's supposed laissez faire about his son.
Look how much better I am - Ennis propping himself up.
Look how much better I am, I, at least, love my kids and support them though it is hard enough.
You were ready to run out on your boy at the slightest drop of a hat.
You even told me you never wanted kids. I ALWAYS wanted my kids. I love my girls.
I've supported them all these years. I did MY duty.
VERY unfair of Ennis, but very in character.

I also think that 'child support' was cumulative. In other words, even IF Ennis had already stopped the
payments or was getting close to it, the cumulative effect of years of child support had taken their toll.
I stand before you, a poor man who did the 'right' thing.

Yeah, right by everyone BUT Jack.

It amazes me that Jack doesn't lunge at him and knock him to the ground.
But I understand that by then, Jack is exhausted by all of it.
He loves Ennis, but he is tired of having to DEAL with him.
Though that doesn't mean he'll stop.

Oh WOW! I can't even begin to understand this. Talk about stretching the lily in order to make Ennis look bad.

Yes Ennis asked Jack does he know what child support means. And guess what...it was a legitimate question. There was nothing in that remark that shows that Ennis was making some form of dig to Jack. He was simply pointing out a fact in regard to his financial life. Ennis has responsibilities...and Ennis has always been a man who took his responsibilities seriously when it comes to work. And I'm sorry but Jack is NOT a responsibility for Ennis no more then Jack was responsible for Ennis. Maybe emotionally...but at the moment we are not addressing emotions. We are addressing financial. Ennis is poor and he wasn't using it as some type of weapon...he was simply stating a fact. As Ennis told Jack, he's no longer able to quit a job at a moment notice as he was once able to do in his youth. That's no longer option for him. Maybe that's the real reason why he didn't go after the job at the power company that Alma suggested for him. Sure he would have made more money, but most likely he would not have been able to drop that job as easily as droping the jobs as a ranch hand in order to run off to see Jack whenever he got a postcard from him. Has that been discuss??

Ennis had to found a way to support his childern and that is something he clearly took seriously and I can't believe he is actually being criticize for that. There are some parents who actually put the welfare of their childern ahead of their own happiness, especially if they are still minors. And I don't ever recall Ennis telling Jack that once his girls are grown they could have a life together.

Jack may not have enjoyed hearing it - and it may have been the straw that broke the camel's back - but the truth is life actually goes on beyond them. Yes Ennis should have been more sensitive to Jack's situation. That can't be argued. But by the same token, why couldn't Jack be more understanding to Ennis' financial situation? Life is always a two-sided street. Its never one-sided. And this idea that Ennis should have simply been able to run off and have this sweet life with Jack with ease is not reality...at least not Ennis' reality. That's fantasy. Ennis's struggle, his helplessness, his fears seems to be no longer important. Because he was unable to give Jack that sweet life...suddenly he is just this insensitive, uncaring person who doesn't deserve any form of compassion or understanding.

Finish with rant.

george

[CANSTANDIT]

Welcome, George, to this thread..quite an entrance! 

I think there seems to be a general idea that that line of Ennis's about child support is a decoy...after all, it is NOT the reason he will not live with Jack; or see more of him. He won't live with Jack and see more of him, because he does not want to be accused of being 'queer'. The child support is a fact, but it is only an excuse for the real reason.

I don't think this shows a lack of compassion to recognize this. As I said earlier, Ennis altered his life regularly to be with Jack. That's fine. But the real point is getting missed: the whole reason they are in this predicament is not about what Ennis can't do; it's about what he won't do. All this issues would be non-existent if he'd just follow his heart and be with Jack, on a regular basis. Jack's battery wouldn't be dying out; he'd stop thinking about qutting Ennis; and Ennis would be as committed and loyal as a swan.

But he won't; so anything else he gives as a 'reason', naturally falls under suspicion.  IMHO, of course.

[Cally]

George - I absolutely don't want to make Ennis look bad.  I know he's feeling desperate at this point, and the only thing I find hard to forgive is his lack of response to Jack's 'Sometimes I miss you so much/whip babies'.

[janjo]

We are told at work, and remember that I work with dyslexics everyday, that dyslexia is not a learning difficulty, but a learning difference. Dyslexics have defecits in some areas of the way that they learn, perhaps tending to a more kinesthetic or aural approach to learning than a visual one. They are not regarded as having an illness, but rather as having brains that work slightly differently to the average one.
It is thought that in the average brain there is a large language area on one side of the brain and a small language area on the other side. In dyslexics there are language areas of similar size, one in each hemisphere of the brain.
Although this often confers a difficulty in learning to read in the standard ways that children are taught, there is often a corresponding increase in visual and spatial awareness that leads people with dyslexia to be more artistic and creative than the average person.

In the "business" shall we say, that is why although dyslexics are given special help, they are regarded as being different rather than learning disabled.

I'm not talking about how the kids are treated, or the need to not label people. I'm all for making sure kids don't feel segregated in a negative way.  Perhaps our educational or medical systems simply define it differently.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dyslexia/dyslexia.htm

 I just don't think altering a label changes what something is, at it's core, ie, a condition with systemic 'treatments'. Another discussion for another thread.
My point was really comparing the two as similiar 'differences' . I think that is dangerous ground, myself. That's all.

I'd buy it myself, if someone was saying they were seen as things that set people apart-I agree with that, and I think that is the part of the point of the story. But in themselves, are simply an apple and an orange.

My view of Dyslexia http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/downloads/Part%201%20What%20is%20dyslexia.doc

Dyslexia and its varieties and deveopmental causes, are no less controversial than the varieties and causes of homosexuality, and I find the analogy a good one, but as this is a discussion about Brokeback Mountain rather than a Dyslexia forum I think we had probably leave it there.
IMO though, it is in both cases a lot more fundamental than just changing the labels.

[CANSTANDIT]

Yeah, good idea. Another topic for another day and place.

(I don't see the source on this link, anyway.)

[janjo]

Yeah, good idea. Another topic for another day and place.

(I don't see the source on this link, anyway.)

Sorry, the source is The British Dyslexia Association.

[o2binla]

I guess what I mean is, he does not have the model for nurturing of a child that Ennis seems to have got from his mother. So let me correct it and say that by nature, he may indeed be nurturing; by nurture, well, he has not had a good model, so where might that leave Bobby? Granted, we don't know how Bobby fared... I could be totally off.....

I do think though, that Ennis is very, very nurturing-I'd disagree he is any less so than Jack.  I think it is part of the mothering in him that is such a dichotomy to how he sees himself. He'd die if he knew someone might see him as maternal-yet he very much is, I think. And the DE scene shows us this, IMO.

I don't know that I'd say Ennis is any less nurturing than Jack, but he expresses it less.  It crops up very briefly in the DE (though we don't know about that until the end), and w/his girls and animals.  Doesn't sound like Alma felt nurtured by him at all -- quite the opposite. 

In a way, the entire story is about Ennis' failure to nurture Jack, which is why he's left holding a pair of empty shirts at the end. 

I've always thought Jack's mother must have had a nurturing side, in spite of her dour religiosity, b/c how else would he have learned to be such a loving person?  He is always trying to get Ennis to let him love him, and frequently gets knocked down for it.  Some of this trait would be personality-driven, but I think one also needs a model. 

Both of them definitely need nurturing too -- Jack b/c his parents or at least his dad was cold, and Ennis b/c he lost his parents so early, and b/c at least his father was harsh.  Of the two, it seems to me that Ennis needs it more; Jack seems to have learned to fend for himself, and is willing to take on Ennis' needs.  The film shows this in the SNIT, though we only get hints of it -- esp. about Jack -- in the story. 

[CANSTANDIT]

Jack definitely has more resources, both internal and external. Yes, we can never forget Ennis being orphaned; then left on his own-virtually, if not literally, abandoned-by his siblings. He was a legal adult; but emotionally, he was quite lonely and alone and clueless in several ways. Still that 9 year old who never got to express what that hideous trauma did to him.

I really want to kick his father's ass sometimes.....

[Desecra]

Re dyslexia/homosexuality - I suppose you could argue that the way we do things in our societies prejudices against those with dyslexia.   But I don't see it as the same kind of prejudice - people do not tend to hate dyslexic people in same way that they hate homosexuals.   

Re: child support.  If the child support had finished at 16 Ennis was no longer paying it for either of the girls.   If it finished at 18 then he was only paying it for one of them and it was about to stop.  Why would he paying child support for adults?   (Maybe he has to pay college fees, I don't know, but it's never explained).   So you would expect him to say something like 'It's too difficult at the moment with paying child support, but next year...., in a few months ....., etc.).   He mentions child support just that point that he's paying less than he ever has and is about to stop paying it (if he hasn't already).   That's what's odd.

[CANSTANDIT]

I really think it's just an excuse, and it has had a cumulative impact, ie, what he has already paid out, plus what he may still be paying. He may not have built up any savings, so he must work. But I don't think he is consciously lying about the girls, though he may be exaggerating the current impact. It's a valid point, though. Why give us the wrong ages? Unless, it is another of the 'plenty of dry wood' stuff AP inserts to make us understand there is a charmed, unreal aspect to when J and E hit the mountains together....

Here is an ugly thought: Has Ennis's trust in Jack been eroded over time, him being aware on some level that Jack is gay-how dare he be, after all  ; so he does not feel a compunction to be completly forthcoming about even practical matters? Part of the half-truths? Not anything Jack is doing wrong-just how Ennis sees things.  I don't know. Many marriages are held together by lies , with one  person looking the other way, a la Jack's gayness......It is certianly worth consdering, that's for sure.