Scenes with Ennis and Alma OR Jack and Lureen

[gblady]

This is really trivial, but in that scene where Alma asks Ennis if he knows someone named Jack, there are 2 flesh colored "somethings" sitting on the kitchen counter where Alma is cooking in the electric fry pan.   Does anyone know what in the heck those things are?

[romeshvr]

humburgers i think...

[gblady]

I don't think they were hamburger patties......they were cylindrical shaped, looked to be 2-3 inches tall.......looked like 2 large thumbs, or gigantic nipples, or something.....

[TiWaKi]

A question for discussion:  Alma was the social one and would have been more in contact with the other residents of Riverton, especially after she marries Monroe.  She'd be the one people would ask what ended her marriage to Ennis.  What do you suppose she told them?

[ingmarnicebbmt]

She told them, it would be better for the girls. That Ennis was a loner, not willing to make enough money, never take her out. That she was frightened by his bursts of violence towards her.

Certainly not, that she left him because he was stemming the rose with fishingbuddy Jack nasty.

[TiWaKi]

She told them, it would be better for the girls. That Ennis was a loner, not willing to make enough money, never take her out. That she was frightened by his bursts of violence towards her.

Bursts of violence towards her?

[TiWaKi]

She told them, it would be better for the girls..[    ]..Certainly not, that she left him because he was stemming the rose with fishingbuddy Jack nasty.

Okay, not Jack, the fishing buddy:  We know Alma Junior was aware daddy Ennis "wasn't the marrying kind."  She told Cassie so.  Junior would have gotten that from Alma.  Who else do you suppose Alma would have shared this with?

[ingmarnicebbmt]

That's just the point: It's Alma junior's understanding that Ennis is "not the marrying kind".
Not Alma's.
Alma still believes in marriage for Ennis, she hasn't understood him entirely the way his & her daughter has.
In the kitchen scene, she even suggests he should get married again, though she should know better.

Bursts of violence: yes, all the time unfortunately (supermarket scene, Alma leaving for an extra shift, anal intercourse etc.).

[TiWaKi]

That's just the point: It's Alma junior's understanding that Ennis is "not the marrying kind".
Not Alma's.
Alma still believes in marriage for Ennis, she hasn't understood him entirely the way his & her daughter has.
In the kitchen scene, she even suggests he should get married again, though she should know better.

Bursts of violence: yes, all the time unfortunately (supermarket scene, Alma leaving for an extra shift, anal intercourse etc.).

I disagree.  Alma knows because she saw Ennis and Jack together and she put the note in Ennis' creel case to test her belief, all this when Junior was a small child.  Junior has no such evidence to conclude her father was "not the marrying kind" except what she would have gotten from Alma.

As for the bursts of violence, the only incident of violence prior to the divorce in the movie that Alma witnessed was directed at two vulgar men at the fireworks, not at her.  Remember, the fireworks to the left of the screen behind Ennis, who--in his mind--just defended the honor of his family and womankind, and darkness to the right behind Alma conforting her kids.  She wasn't afraid for herself, she was embarrassed.  His intent didn't register with her, but she didn't fear for her safety.

In the supermarket scene, Ennis is not angry, he is baffled.  Alma has just declared her job at the store on level with his job at the ranch.  She showed no fear of any burst of violence from him.  She asserted herself and then took care of making arrangements for the kids.

Likewise, Alma leaving for the extra shift.  Alma had just finished cooking and announced she was taking off for a overtime shift, surprising Ennis who was expecting the family to be together for the meal.  If they had had no prior discussion about her accepting overtime shifts during family times such as meals, he had a valid complaint.  He argued and she argued back at him on the way out.  There was no burst of violence at her.  She was not afraid of him.  Even when he later kicked the door and can out of frustration going back to the apartment, he checked to be sure the kids didn't "need a push" first.  No one in the family feared any bursts of violence from him against them.

Anal intercourse as violence, I can't say.  She obviously doesn't like it, but the movie doesn't tell us what they've agreed is allowed and not allowed during sex.  The more obvious sex scene determining whether he was violent would be when she questions them having unprotected vaginal sex.  He says if she doesn't want any more of his kids he would happily leave her alone.  Then, with his hulking mass over her, she looks him in the eyes and says "I'd have them if you'd support them."  That's not being said by someone who is expecting a burst of violence from her husband in bed.  He gets off her and she calmly and almost smugly rolls over and turns out the light.

And in the kitchen scene, she should know better and she does know better.  In the scene prior the daughters were at the dinner table just idolizing their dad and she sat there fuming about it.  She wants Ennis out of her life altogether.  In the kitchen she's using the same ploy she used that got him to move into Riverton--her daughters.  Oh, his daughters wish he would marry.  When Ennis says "Once burned" he's telling her he recognizes what she's doing and it won't work.  She wanted the divorce, not him.  That's what sets her off and she uses the creel case story as her evidence she knows he's gay to get at him.  But it makes no sense to Ennis.  It wouldn't because she never told him she saw the two of them kissing.  He grabs her arm in frustration.  It's when when she said she'd call for Monroe that he raised his fist and he said he'd make both of them eat the floor if she did, that she was ever actually afraid of him.  Still, he ultimately did what she expected--he fled.  Mission accomplished:  Ennis never again entered Alma's house.  The girls would have to go out to his truck to be with him after that scene.

[In Tears]

I disagree.  Alma knows because she saw Ennis and Jack together and she put the note in Ennis' creel case to test her belief, all this when Junior was a small child.  Junior has no such evidence to conclude her father was "not the marrying kind" except what she would have gotten from Alma.

As for the bursts of violence, the only incident of violence prior to the divorce in the movie that Alma witnessed was directed at two vulgar men at the fireworks, not at her.  ..... 

In the supermarket scene, Ennis is not angry, he is baffled.  Alma has just declared her job at the store on level with his job at the ranch.  She showed no fear of any burst of violence from him.  She asserted herself and then took care of making arrangements for the kids.

Likewise, Alma leaving for the extra shift.  Alma had just finished cooking and announced she was taking off for a overtime shift, surprising Ennis who was expecting the family to be together for the meal.  If they had had no prior discussion about her accepting overtime shifts during family times such as meals, he had a valid complaint.  He argued and she argued back at him on the way out.  There was no burst of violence at her.  She was not afraid of him.  Even when he later kicked the door and can out of frustration going back to the apartment, he checked to be sure the kids didn't "need a push" first.  No one in the family feared any bursts of violence from him against them.

Anal intercourse as violence, I can't say.  She obviously doesn't like it, but the movie doesn't tell us what they've agreed is allowed and not allowed during sex.  The more obvious sex scene determining whether he was violent would be when she questions them having unprotected vaginal sex.  He says if she doesn't want any more of his kids he would happily leave her alone.  Then, with his hulking mass over her, she looks him in the eyes and says "I'd have them if you'd support them."  That's not being said by someone who is expecting a burst of violence from her husband in bed.  He gets off her and she calmly and almost smugly rolls over and turns out the light.

And in the kitchen scene, she should know better and she does know better.  In the scene prior the daughters were at the dinner table just idolizing their dad and she sat there fuming about it.  She wants Ennis out of her life altogether.  In the kitchen she's using the same ploy she used that got him to move into Riverton--her daughters.  Oh, his daughters wish he would marry.  When Ennis says "Once burned" he's telling her he recognizes what she's doing and it won't work.  She wanted the divorce, not him.  That's what sets her off and she uses the creel case story as her evidence she knows he's gay to get at him.  But it makes no sense to Ennis.  It wouldn't because she never told him she saw the two of them kissing.  He grabs her arm in frustration.  It's when when she said she'd call for Monroe that he raised his fist and he said he'd make both of them eat the floor if she did, that she was ever actually afraid of him.  Still, he ultimately did what she expected--he fled.  Mission accomplished:  Ennis never again entered Alma's house.  The girls would have to go out to his truck to be with him after that scene.

Ha!  TiWaKi, we see E's actions very differently but I am certain of this, If E had you as his divorce lawyer, he never would have faced  those burdensome child support payments.   

[ingmarnicebbmt]

Must say the same. It's a completely idealized vision of what was going on between Alma & Ennis.

[peteinportland]

Must say the same. It's a completely idealized vision of what was going on between Alma & Ennis.

I don't find it overly idealized. I think the truth might be a bit more in the middle than what either of you have in mind; however, Ennis as dominating abusive husband over a timed and cowering Alma is far from the truth as well (IMO).

[lolita]

In the movie and the book I dont find Alma as 'frightened by bursts of violence towards her' except that one time in the kitchen.
And you have to admit, she baited him.
She is aware how scared he is of his feelings about Jack Twist becomming known. He never mentions their friendship, just takes off twice a year for  'fishing trips' , he is the one rejecting Jack's plans to be together as he doesnt want society to find out - suddenly he is outed, the least thing he expects in a vitrolic attack from Alma, who is still bitter about it all.
Not only is she telling him that she knows, she is saying 'Jack Nasty' that there is something wrong with them both.
The only love and tenderness that Ennis keeps in his heart is for Jack.
I think he reacted in the only way he knew how, by trying to shut her down with a threat - that he couldnt carry out.
Ennis seems to just react to flight or fight in a threatened situation - and its obvious he felt very threatened.

[kmich]

I disagree.  Alma knows because she saw Ennis and Jack together and she put the note in Ennis' creel case to test her belief, all this when Junior was a small child.  Junior has no such evidence to conclude her father was "not the marrying kind" except what she would have gotten from Alma.

As for the bursts of violence, the only incident of violence prior to the divorce in the movie that Alma witnessed was directed at two vulgar men at the fireworks, not at her.  Remember, the fireworks to the left of the screen behind Ennis, who--in his mind--just defended the honor of his family and womankind, and darkness to the right behind Alma conforting her kids.  She wasn't afraid for herself, she was embarrassed.  His intent didn't register with her, but she didn't fear for her safety.

I think Alma is shocked and quite possibly afraid. She didn't know Ennis was capable of such violence. I believe this incident changes her view of him. And I disagree that Ennis thinks he is defending his family's honor. He politely asks the vulgar men to be quiet. But he doesn't become violent until they question his masculinity. One of them says "probably stopped putting it to the wife after the kids come." That's what makes him violent. They've implied something about his sexuality. 

In the supermarket scene, Ennis is not angry, he is baffled.  Alma has just declared her job at the store on level with his job at the ranch.  She showed no fear of any burst of violence from him.  She asserted herself and then took care of making arrangements for the kids.

I don't even know where to start with this comment. Ennis is not baffled. He's angry and he makes that clear with his very threatening look. Which makes Alma immediately back down. And why is Alma's job less important than Ennis's? Why doesn't Ennis make arrangements for someone to take care of the kids? He just dumps them on her. And they promptly make a huge mess in the store that she'll have to clean up.

Likewise, Alma leaving for the extra shift.  Alma had just finished cooking and announced she was taking off for a overtime shift, surprising Ennis who was expecting the family to be together for the meal.  If they had had no prior discussion about her accepting overtime shifts during family times such as meals, he had a valid complaint.  He argued and she argued back at him on the way out.  There was no burst of violence at her.  She was not afraid of him.  Even when he later kicked the door and can out of frustration going back to the apartment, he checked to be sure the kids didn't "need a push" first.  No one in the family feared any bursts of violence from him against them.

Obviously they need money so Alma is working an extra shift. And not only is she working an extra shift,  she's also cooked dinner for everyone before leaving for work. All Ennis needs to do is serve it to the girls. While I don't think he's especially violent here, he is throwing a temper tantrum. Of special note is the fact that this is the first time we see Alma standing up to Ennis. And he doesn't like it all. 

Anal intercourse as violence, I can't say.  She obviously doesn't like it, but the movie doesn't tell us what they've agreed is allowed and not allowed during sex.  The more obvious sex scene determining whether he was violent would be when she questions them having unprotected vaginal sex.  He says if she doesn't want any more of his kids he would happily leave her alone.  Then, with his hulking mass over her, she looks him in the eyes and says "I'd have them if you'd support them."  That's not being said by someone who is expecting a burst of violence from her husband in bed.  He gets off her and she calmly and almost smugly rolls over and turns out the light.

I don't find Alma smug at all in this scene. She looks completely miserable to me.

And in the kitchen scene, she should know better and she does know better.

So she asks for it basically? By finally confronting him for his years of betrayal, she deserves having him roughly grab her arm, shove his fist in her face, and threaten her (while she's pregnant!)?  I give Ennis credit for pullling himself together and leaving the house but his behavior is just not acceptable. We may be able to understand why  he acts as he does, but it doesn't excuse it.

  In the scene prior the daughters were at the dinner table just idolizing their dad and she sat there fuming about it.  She wants Ennis out of her life altogether.  In the kitchen she's using the same ploy she used that got him to move into Riverton--her daughters.  Oh, his daughters wish he would marry.  When Ennis says "Once burned" he's telling her he recognizes what she's doing and it won't work.  She wanted the divorce, not him.  That's what sets her off and she uses the creel case story as her evidence she knows he's gay to get at him.  But it makes no sense to Ennis.  It wouldn't because she never told him she saw the two of them kissing.  He grabs her arm in frustration.  It's when when she said she'd call for Monroe that he raised his fist and he said he'd make both of them eat the floor if she did, that she was ever actually afraid of him.  Still, he ultimately did what she expected--he fled.  Mission accomplished:  Ennis never again entered Alma's house.  The girls would have to go out to his truck to be with him after that scene.

To me, the "once burned" comment is an attempt to put the blame for their marriage's failure on Alma. He's implying that she's hurt him so badly that he'll never marry again. And we know that isn't really the true.

[FoS]

The sledging scene between Ennis and Alma is very happy and loving. But I could not help thinking of it as a forewarning of how their marridge will take a dive down the slope, and in the end spill them in the cold snow/divorce.
Just like Ennis felt in the book - but for a very different reason - comming down from the mountain:  As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall.
And Alma later: his failure to look for a decent permanent job with the county or the power company, put her in a long, slow dive and when Alma Jr. was nine and Francine seven she said, what am I doin hangin around with him, divorced Ennis and married the Riverton grocer.

Also: as a film director it can nott be just any old film Ang Lee shows us in the drive-in scene. I know that somebody has allready stated this, and i am really frustrated that no one has come up with an answer, so please help.