Scenes with Ennis and Alma OR Jack and Lureen

[cricket99999]

It might very well be that Alma simply didn't know what else to do throughout those years.

I agree; she didn't know what else to do during those years -- tried to get through the pain and confusion as best she can.  And later she explains it in a way that makes her look a little better... so that she's less likely to be accused of complacency. 

Well, I'm not sure if "complacency" is totally the right word--the "misery look" she gives him is not complacent!

I'm not sure either if that's the word I want... what I mean is this.  She wouldn't want anyone to be able to say, "Why did you go so many years knowing about the kiss -- hence knowing about the affair -- yet you complacently said nothing about it at all?"

Personally I would have mentioned the kiss if I were Alma delivering the "Jack Nasty" accusation.  (Not that I would do that; I am such an angel LOL)   Without admitting she saw the kiss, how can she claim to interpret Ennis' *not* fishing?  One wouldn't immediately think their hubby and buddy were gay.  For example, the trips could be cover for gambling trips, or any other activity which Alma might not approve.  Or there may be girlfriend(s) hubby sees, and the 'fishing buddy' is the cover.  And so on...  Alma claims to know the fishing line never touched water -- but without seeing the kiss there'd be little chance of figuring out what that means.

[cricket99999]

But cheating on Ennis with milquetoast Munroe?

LOL like that would be a thrill.  I say no affair... Alma went straight from being Monroe's employee to being his wife. Anything in between is hard to imagine.

[patroclus]

sometimes this "Stonewall veteran" feels like a dinosaur

no, no: all honour to you - a jewel to be treasured, mate!

[patroclus]

Alma claims to know the fishing line never touched water -- but without seeing the kiss there'd be little chance of figuring out what that means.

yes, that is true. She's also making a point about Ennis's neglect of her and the girls, his self-centredness here, too. Bring us back some fish, Ennis, the note said. She says he knows that they like fish. But he never did. And that he was lying to her all the time. But it's true that she's not telling Ennis how she really knows the real purpose of the fishing trips. Which triggers paranoia in poor En of course, because he assumes that she can see what he is, that the truth is just leaking out of him and becoming obvious. Hence his anxious questions to Jack the next trip we see when he asks him is he ever wonders if other people can tell...

[cricket99999]

Which triggers paranoia in poor En ...

Awww I love that nick, and someone said Jack calls him that in the parka scene w/ Lureen.  That "he doubts En's truck would make it to Texas" or something like that.  Do you know?

[patroclus]

Which triggers paranoia in poor En ...

Awww I love that nick, and someone said Jack calls him that in the parka scene w/ Lureen.  That "he doubts En's truck would make it to Texas" or something like that.  Do you know?

He does. World of tenderness in that little syllable, eh?

[cricket99999]

*melts*

[peteinportland]

I've always heard "I doubt HIS truck would make it...." However, I still hear "I'm sorry," and "roll your own," so whadda I know? 

[bluehorse]

But it's true that she's not telling Ennis how she really knows the real purpose of the fishing trips. Which triggers paranoia in poor En of course, because he assumes that she can see what he is, that the truth is just leaking out of him and becoming obvious. Hence his anxious questions to Jack the next trip we see when he asks him is he ever wonders if other people can tell...

This was revelatory for me; it never occurred to me how Ennis would internally belabor how Alma knew about him and Jack, and how this would further his paranoia, leading to his questions at the river. . .I forget that Ennis, in the film, doesn't see Alma see them. In the story, it's more ambiguous. The line after she sees them kissing in the story is: What could he (Ennis) say?

[maturben]

Just returned home from seeing BBM a fifth time.  Took a close friend of mine (actually we're boink-in-laws) who was seeing the film for the first time.  She was totally blown away by the film.
I had lent her my copy of the story to read before hand and sent her home with the story/screenplay ppbk, at her request, so that she could study it.  Over dinner after the movie we had a really great discussion about the movie.
One detail I zeroed in on with this viewing of the movie was the look of desolation on Ennis's face in the divorce scene.  His eyes are brimming with tears.

Patroclus, thanks for the compliment

[TaoOfMeow]

(Newbie here...please forgive my long post. )

Interesting points being raised in this thread, and I wanted to share a few things that stand out for me as I watch their respective scenes play out:


Ennis/Alma:

• From the little we know of their lives/circumstances beforehand, I believe that their marriage may have been arranged. (Ennis is so repressed, so closed off and isolated, that I just can't see him dating anyone by choice.)
• Alma was in love with Ennis, but I don't think her life experience/education allowed her to entertain the notion that "love" could encompass feelings and actions that went beyond what she'd already come to expect.
• I don't think Ennis and Alma really "talked" to one another very much, even though I sense that they had much more in common than Ennis and Jack did.
• When Ennis, during their lovemaking, moves away from her embrace and roughly turns her over, the look of pain and anguish in Alma's eyes before the camera cuts away really hits hard.  She's clearly confused and hurt, but lets her sense of duty as a wife override her need to understand this. (Society still frowned upon women fully asserting their rights/needs as spouses...so if Alma either refused to submit or asked too many questions it would certainly arouse disdain and suspicion from Ennis.)
• At the end of the scene in the grocery store (just as Alma goes for Junior's hand after the accident with the peanuts), I noticed a large hole in one leg of Alma's pantyhose as her back is turned towards the camera.  For me, this small wardrobe detail really brought to light just how poor they all were.  I've been there myself (used nail polish many a time to keep my nylons going until I could afford another pair), and it made me feel even more sorry for her situation.

Jack/Lureen:

• I think what Lureen found the most attractive about Jack was his passive nature. (The scene in the bar after the rodeo where we see them glancing back and forth at each other is quite telling -- he's curious, but still reserved and shy; she's looking straight back at him, confident and determined.)  I'm certain she's been courted by countless men with more money and power than Jack, but I'll bet he was the only one that she had to go out and nab herself.
• I don't feel that Lureen was in love with Jack.  Again, they had a lot in common with each other, but I don't think the feelings went any deeper than what we saw on film.  I can see their relationship being one of two friends who had some great times together, thought it would be nifty to get married and "play house", but soon grew tired of the whole thing and went off to exist in their own separate circles.
• The scenes of Lureen working at her desk in front of a wall of rodeo memorabilia (only a tiny parcel of which, according to the script, belongs to her husband) are telling for me --  it's as if she's "turned her back" on the life she once led, the one that I think made her happiest. (As a side note, I don't think Jack ever takes off his rodeo buckle.  Probably the only thing -- besides Ennis' love -- he ever won on his own.)

I could say more...but I've rambled enough.  I find it amazing that we can all can glean so much more meaning out of such precious few minutes of screen time!

[ingmarnicebbmt]

I don't think Ennis and Alma really "talked" to one another very much, even though I sense that they had much more in common than Ennis and Jack did.

As much as I agree with you concerning the first half sentence of your analysis, I wonder what made you believe in what you say in the second half... For what exactly is it that E & A might have possibly in common - apart from the poor, dull background they share, their "fate" so to speak, or the marriage "arrangement" you mentioned earlier?

[TaoOfMeow]

I don't think Ennis and Alma really "talked" to one another very much, even though I sense that they had much more in common than Ennis and Jack did.

As much as I agree with you concerning the first half sentence of your analysis, I wonder what made you believe in what you say in the second half... For what exactly is it that E & A might have possibly in common - apart from the poor, dull background they share, their "fate" so to speak, or the marriage "arrangement" you mentioned earlier?

Grasping at straws, I know...but I get the sense that Ennis and Alma, being shy and isolated small-town folk, probably knew each other as children. (He casually refers to her by first name when talking to Jack, not in a general "girl I'm engaged to" sort of way -- could just be him being respectful, but it sounds more friendly to me.)  I'll also go out on a limb and say that Alma was also the youngest child in her family (her sister is referenced to only once, and like Ennis' siblings I don't see her playing an active emotional role in Alma's adult life).  Ennis and Alma may have met one another over time at church functions, perhaps even played together in grade school.  Aside from their personalities (reserved, quiet, hardworking), they also share the same social background, the same level of worldly experience, the same expectations, the same attitudes towards family and children.  And based on what others have mentioned about costume design in other threads, I think the fact that both characters seem to dress in similar subdued earthtones (as opposed to Jack's blues and Lureen's reds) is a subtle visual clue for me in as to their "sameness".

I find it telling that, even though early on they both know that their life as a couple is an emotional/physical wasteland, their mutual sense of responsibility (to their children? or their own misguided notion of what marrige itself really meant?) forces them to keep up the facade for thirteen years.

[TaoOfMeow]

Ennis/Alma:

• From the little we know of their lives/circumstances beforehand, I believe that their marriage may have been arranged. (Ennis is so repressed, so closed off and isolated, that I just can't see him dating anyone by choice.)

Just backpedaling a bit and realized I forgot to clarify this thought.  :-[

As far as "arranged" goes, I believe it leans somewhere toward the notion that their families felt that they would be best suited to one another.  Nothing along the lines of a "matchmaker", certainly -- but I think that Ennis and Alma were shown the marriage road beforehand and were pushed hard in that direction.

[DaveL]

ingmarnicebbmt, persons who never met would include:  J's parents never met Lureen, and did not attend son's funeral; Ennis only met parents at the "wake" scene.