Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II

[Desecra]

Ennis's virginity (if it existed at that point.  We have to guess!) would have been another factor in all the things which together allowed Ennis to avoid registering that there was something gay going on (and so which allowed 'nothing seemed wrong').  There were other things which helped.  Off the top of my head:
- Ennis's lack of experience (with both men and women, I think)
- the location, out in the back of nowhere
- the forced togetherness, away from women (in a situation where straight men might conceivably help each other out!)
- Jack's careful approach
- 'not a goddamn word' - avoiding acknowledging the relationship or the sex
- avoiding taking the sexual experimentation much farther than the FNIT (no face to face sex, etc.)
I'd guess that if any of these circumstances had been different, Ennis would have been more aware of what was going on, would have remembered Earl, and would have had to rationalise what was happening (as he does much later).    If, for instance, Jack had talked about his sexuality or been more insistent, I think the spell would have been broken. 

Yes, children hug sometimes.  We seem to be being told that Jack and Ennis didn't, on Brokeback.  Even at the end, they don't hug goodbye (although they certainly hug when they see each other again - and it leads to a passionate kiss).    Ennis, like everybody else, would know that people kissed even if he hadn't seen his parents kissing.    But he'd also know that sexual kissing implied sexual attraction.   He wouldn't have seen his father kissing another man, I don't think.  (I'm probably missing your point here, but I think that's kissing isn't sexual, so it wouldn't have been a problem for Ennis?   Or am I missing it completely?)

[janjo]

We aren't told that Jack and Ennis didn't kiss, we are told at one particular moment that they didn't come face to face. Ennis wouldn't have seen his father kissing another man, (at least I would assume so), but he wouldn't have seen his father having sex with another man either, and still Ennis knows exactly what to do.
You could say of course that Jack and Ennis were behaving like the farm animals they had seen, but that to me seems far too harsh.

[kathy]

Oh, I believe Jack and Ennis had face to face foreplay and sex many a time in their summer on Brokeback.  Sure, the FNIT was rough sex, but remember the looks on their faces as they face each other before the sex that first time - when it seems like their thoughts are running on the same level as to their feelings/attraction?  And then they are face to face again when they press foreheads together and put their fingers through each others' hair?  Then Ennis, being Ennis and probably still wanting to deny what he feels, flips Jack over...

The SNIT is one of the most beautiful love scenes I've ever seen.     How Ennis comes in so shyly and looks away, and Jack is so considerate and tender with him.  The tenderness & intimacy of this love scene is one I'll never forget.  I think it's natural that this behavior between the two would continue during their idyllic happy summer -  face to face, side to side, anyway at all, etc., before the sex, which I don't think was rough anymore after that first night.   
kathy   

p.s.  Also, I believe Ennis had no sexual experience, which he admits to Jack, and think Jack was not that sexually experienced either. 

[fofol]

I just don't see this, Mike. Why is Ennis unable to control himself at the reunion if he had iron self control on the mountain? Two nineteen year old boys, free of all parental restrictions, overflowing with testosterone, and half drunk on whiskey a lot of the time. In those circumstances he is able to maneuver Jack around and never give in to temptation to snuggle up to him in a forward position, even when spending a whole night in a tent, but four years later he rushes straight down the stairs and embraces him full on, and says things like:

"You and me can't hardly be decent together if what happened back there" -- he jerked his head in the direction of the apartment -- "grabs on us like that. We do that in the wrong place we'll be dead. There's no reins on this one. It scares the piss out a me."

Why could Ennis control himself ferociously at one time and not at another?
Sorry, but it doesn't seem right to me.

                                                                                        ^^^^

Ennis was a virgin....we are led to believe. So I take then...so was Alma. Ennis had four years of bedding Alma after he and Jack left BBM. It was THEN that Ennis knew it was Jack he wanted , needed . He had nothing to compare all consumming love with. He thought Jack was a bit of a fling. Perhaps what all sheep herders did when they got desperate.for sexual contact. It was only after being able to compare his feelings for Alma and Jack that he realised where his heart really lay. Then , after a four year seperation, and "wringing it out" a hundred times with thoughts of Jack, when the reunion took place , the flood gates opened and all control went out of the window !

    Please excuse my poor prose - what I meant to write should have started with: "If you can find no other reason to understand that Jack's impression that Ennis wouldn't hold him face to face, the reunion gives the lie to that supposition.  IOW, if Ennis refused to face Jack at any time when they were intimate on Brokeback, Jack's statement is still proven to be incorrect at the reunion.  If Jack means to say that Ennis wouldn't hold him face-to-face, the reunion leaves him with only the debris of this notion because it happened.  Plus the description of the reunion kiss, mouths together like key to the lock, also has the connotation that this is not the first time this has happened.  "Key to lock," surely indicates longstanding familiarity.

[Desecra]

Janjo, I think I have missed your point completely .  I dont understand. 

Kathy, I'm talking about the SS, but I agree that the sex is different in the film.  You don't think it was rough at all after the SNIT?   I'm not so sure.  I think the SNIT was particularly gentle, but later we see them wrestling, maybe implying that some of the sex was rough, fun stuff, rather than romantic stuff.

Fofol, the reunion doesn't prove Jack to be incorrect.   Jack remembers that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face then, which means that he would embrace face to face later.   

[fofol]

   Des, I can go with he figured that it wouldn't be face to face for the one shot of the DE, but if that 'then' is taken to mean all the time on the mountain, that's too unrealistic: as it is, Jack does not otherwise demonstrate restraint.

   I have just completed mentoring a male high school senior, 18 y.o., in songwriting, for his senior project.  This was one of the most difficult things I've ever done: everyone told me that there was only one answer to the difficulties I was having with him.  Any problems I was having with him were 'settled' by the teachers and psychologists I solicited for help with the same refrain: "What do you expect, he's 18!"  Having been an 18 y.o. myself at one time, I was completely blind-sided by the grateful acceptance of information and knowledge, and the delirious joy at finding decent places for him to play and present the new tunes he wrote (or I wrote - I had to find some satisfaction: he was not about to oblige me with any) followed immediately by two-week freeze-outs, like he fell off the face of the earth.  Evidently, earth-shattering changes in attitude/knowledge take place daily, sometimes hourly, in boys that age, and while our boys don't have the same kinds of input that my student did, the personality structures that allow for deeply held personal beliefs that can stop on a dime and become something entirely different in the space of a sentence or two left me swimming in the deep end of the pool with no way out.  For me, it's not that big a jump between 18 and 19, and once you've had sex with another guy, it's all just a matter of what you'll try.  Our two 19 y.o.s are out in the middle of nowhere, and have discovered sex between them is something they both like.  This is not an 'I'll only let you touch me there, and only in that way' scenario, for either of them - they're inexperienced and emotionally hobbled, but they're boys - they want have to know how everything feels, and preferably all at once, thank you...

[Desecra]

I think that's what you'd expect and imagine if it wasn't for that line, and the way the line fits with the rest of the story.  It's probably like that in the film.   But in the short story, I think it's that line that helps to explain why 'nothing seemed wrong', why they felt 'invisible', why Ennis 'knew how it would go' without any worry about whether what they were doing might be gay, and why it took him about a year to work out what was really going on.    That line explains that they weren't doing what nineteen year olds would naturally do.   I don't think they really went much farther than the FNIT, sexually.   

There has to be some explanation for Ennis being so free of homophobia (and therefore fear and shame) on Brokeback.  I think that line is it.   I think it's telling us that they had sex in a way that allowed Ennis to believe they were straight guys getting relief (and even that they would appear so to an observer - he doesn't worry about being seen until the reunion), as long as he didn't think about it or talk about it. 

How it went is left to our imagination, but we know they didn't talk about it.  Ennis didn't tell Jack not to do certain things (except perhaps on that one occasion when he said 'I'm not no queer').   I think it just 'happened'.    Ennis jerked his hand away when Jack tried something in the tent the first time, so I don't think Jack would keep repeating that.   

If you take away that line, you're left wondering how Brokeback could have happened the way it did.  How Ennis, with his background, didn't think of Earl and his father's lessons and the tire iron until later.   How could Ennis not have known that he was attracted to Jack?   That line's the answer, I think.  He didn't get as far as doing things that would tell him he was attracted to Jack (rather than just getting sexual relief) while they were on the mountain.   That's why nothing seemed wrong, and why he could naturally and openly show love in the DE. 

[fofol]

Ennis is free of homophobia up on Brokeback because they have both agreed that they are straight heterosexual boys who are just doing this for fun, not romance.  "I'm not queer; Me neither."  Straight guys will have sex with one another if they're sure there's no emotion involved - this is the reason that the sex between Ennis and Jack is without a word, rough, snorting and laughing - that's the only socially acceptable way it can happen..  Nominally heterosexual teenage boys traditionally have sex with one another in the West in situations where there will be no females available, as long as there is no attachment between the partners.  Once emotions enter the picture, the sex becomes queer because feelings are reserved for girls: so, how come didn't you know that?    It's true, though: loveless sex is fine, but emotional involvments are too 'girly,' denoting someone who is dependent, i.e., unable to haul their own freight.   This is the difference between the euphoric and bitter air on Brokeback - euphoric because they had the blanket coverage, permission to screw their brains out, because up in the mountains you can do everything but fall in love - and bitter because each privately knew he had feelings for the other guy.  This does not mean they identified their feelings as love - hell, Ennis doesn't even know what love is, at this point in his life.  He just knows he wants to be with Jack as much as he can, within the unwritten rules.

[janjo]

I agree with so much that you say fofol. Especially your estimation of nineteen year old boys. I just don't see Ennis, or any other teenage boy, half drunk on whiskey, and madly in love, even if not acknowledging it, keeping himself under such control that he never comes face to face with his partner for weeks at a time. They're having sex for God's sake!
Once they've done that are they really going to be holding back on anything else, let alone not coming face to face and not touching each others private parts?
It just isn't any teenage boy I know, whatever construction one wants to put on an extreme and rather stretched literal interpretation of the words of the short story.

I have serious doubts that completely heterosexual men have sex with each other however straightened the circumstances. Probably they are 80% heterosexual / 20% homosexual.
I also don't think there is any reason to regard women as dependent, although they may have appeared so in 1963.
I sincerely hope that in one way or another I have always been able to "haul my own freight," even if that was looking after young children so my husband could work!
I may forgive you though, seeing it's you!

[janjo]

Janjo, I think I have missed your point completely .  I dont understand. 

Kathy, I'm talking about the SS, but I agree that the sex is different in the film.  You don't think it was rough at all after the SNIT?   I'm not so sure.  I think the SNIT was particularly gentle, but later we see them wrestling, maybe implying that some of the sex was rough, fun stuff, rather than romantic stuff.

Fofol, the reunion doesn't prove Jack to be incorrect.   Jack remembers that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face then, which means that he would embrace face to face later.   

Dear Des. Sorry if I confused you. I meant that even a virgin would know that adults kissed, it was something people having sex did.
I was suggesting that if it is possible that Jack and Ennis didn't know that, but had gained all their sexual information from watching farm animals, they could assume under those circumstances that sex from behind with no tenderness at all or kissing, was what all mammals did.
This though is tantamount to suggesting that Jack and Ennis behaved like animals, which is much too harsh an assumption for a love story.
They are both deprived, and emotionally damaged, but they are neither of them so damaged that they would behave like a subject of a sociological study i.e. a child so damaaged and abused that they have no normal socialisation at all.

[Desecra]

Janjo, thank you for explaining.   Yes, I agree that they'd know about kissing - how could they not?

Fofol, in the film they do seem to agree that they're straight, but it doesn't seem to happen in the short story.   They already know how it will go straight after the FNIT, without any verbal agreement in place.   That's a big difference from the film.   Obviously what happened in the SS FNIT itself wasn't something that made Ennis worry (as he does in the film).   

(There's the I'm not no queer conversation, but that happens at some unspecified time, while they're having sex.  It's not an agreement to continue, in the way that the hillside conversation of the film is).

We're given a detailed description of the sex (quite unusual in that story collection if I remember, and unique in that particular story).   It does fit with Ennis avoiding embracing face to face, and avoiding seeing or feeling that it's Jack he wants. 

I'm starting from the point that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face, as Jack remembers, and seeing if the rest of the story fits with that.   It does seem to.

[royandronnie]

I think we are told Ennis is a virgin: FNIT is "nothing he'd done before."

[kathy]

Janjo, I think I have missed your point completely .  I dont understand. 

Kathy, I'm talking about the SS, but I agree that the sex is different in the film.  You don't think it was rough at all after the SNIT?   I'm not so sure.  I think the SNIT was particularly gentle, but later we see them wrestling, maybe implying that some of the sex was rough, fun stuff, rather than romantic stuff.

Fofol, the reunion doesn't prove Jack to be incorrect.   Jack remembers that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face then, which means that he would embrace face to face later.   

   Hello to Des from kathy - RE:  My reply #3032 of yesterday --

I stand by my post 'til the end.  I would repeat it here, but that's just repetition.  So I'll continue and say this.  No, I do not think the sex was rough after the SNIT.  Sure they wrestle; they're 19 yrs. old, boys in their late 'teens, and want fun too as well as being intimate.  But that doesn't mean the sex was rough again.  On the contrary, it might be even more romantic after that happy, beautiful SNIT. 

Aguirre spies on them thru his binoculars and sees them wrestling before Ennis gets Jake down on the ground and kisses him.   Even on their last morning on BBM, Jack tries to get Ennis out of his "funk" by flinging the rope around him, wanting to playfully wrestle.

Anyway, after that SNIT, Ennis & Jack are certainly aware of their of their feelings for each other; I don't think they would want the sex to be rough again.  I think it's more & more romantic, including face to face, side to side, any which way at all...

kathy     

[Desecra]

I think we are told Ennis is a virgin: FNIT is "nothing he'd done before."

I think so.  It could be interpreted that he hadn't done anal sex before (and I read it that way the first time).   But I don't think there's enough difference between vaginal and anal to flag up that the anal sex is new.   Or maybe it's meant to be ambiguous.

[Desecra]

   Hello to Des from kathy - RE:  My reply #3032 of yesterday --

I stand by my post 'til the end.  I would repeat it here, but that's just repetition.  So I'll continue and say this.  No, I do not think the sex was rough after the SNIT.  Sure they wrestle; they're 19 yrs. old, boys in their late 'teens, and want fun too as well as being intimate.  But that doesn't mean the sex was rough again.  On the contrary, it might be even more romantic after that happy, beautiful SNIT. 

Aguirre spies on them thru his binoculars and sees them wrestling before Ennis gets Jake down on the ground and kisses him.   Even on their last morning on BBM, Jack tries to get Ennis out of his "funk" by flinging the rope around him, wanting to playfully wrestle.

Anyway, after that SNIT, Ennis & Jack are certainly aware of their of their feelings for each other; I don't think they would want the sex to be rough again.  I think it's more & more romantic, including face to face, side to side, any which way at all...

kathy     

You could be right.   I imagine some rougher sex as quite natural, especially for people who are play wrestling.  I can easily imagine some off camera in the film: not necessarily like the FNIT (which was more abrupt and rougher than in the short story), but just some fun stuff.   But I'm never sure with the film.   In the short story we're told directly that they only had rough sex.  I do agree that being aware that they have feelings for each other is a key difference that explains the different type of sex in the film and short story.  (I think Jack is aware in the short story, but Ennis isn't).   I can't imagine how Ennis could fit something like the SNIT into an idea that they were just co-workers getting sexual relief.   He knows they are lovers, in the film (hence the fear and shame coming in early, I think - riding off after the FNIT, seeing the mutilated sheep, and talking about the sex on the mountainside).