The New Yorker - Discussion

[Ellen (tellyouwhat)]

   Yes, it IS !!!!

It's the New Yorker !!   

Now THAT is cool.  Thanks mountain boy! 

Will Jake come in here and talk about Year's End?

gary, I am still going through that issue!

Meanwhile, did anyone read the story called Natalie, from the same issue?   

(slinking off to catch up on reading)

[Ellen (tellyouwhat)]

Interesting, "Year's End" is not yet on the on line archives. 
I wonder how they make those decisions.
Anyway, have not yet read the Updike piece.  Saw it as well as
your post but haven't gotten around to it yet.
I plan to , and will post when I can. 

(We "lose" issues all the time.  As my wife says, "it's right where you lost it". )
She's so clever.

Gary, I read the story.

OK just a few observations off the top of my head, since I haven't had a long time to think about it.

SPOILERS obviously!


Kaushid (his name?) said "there was a girl in my bed that morning" as if she was no one, but then, she was.  Their relationship almost might have lasted longer except probably his inexplicable disappearance for the remaining of the vacation was unforgivable to her, just as the night of the climax (he yelled at his two step-sisters) ruined his relationship with them.

I think the moment in the story that I most appreciated was when he realized the big modern house, that his mother had picked out, really did not suit him or any of them, and even in his own mind was associated with his mother's illness.

Chitra was afraid for the girls (and the girls were afraid) but the worst thing that happened to them was inside the walls, not out.  And also invisible, to the parents.

Strange that he buried the photographs.  They were kept in a sealed container the way a lot of people keep ashes, until they figure out what to do with them. but not to keep photographs seems a strange thing.

Even though he is Americanized and even though they lived in a very American sophisticated house, much of the culture, honoring the father's wishes etc., was still intact.  I would like to know whether his own marriage, some day, will be arranged or will he be able to marry an American girl?  The cultural pull seems very strong.

[CANSTANDIT]

Ok, Rosie, read "Outage". 
That damn Updike is so infuriating. Even in a short piece
as this, he is able to create such full characters and sense of place.
(I realize it helps that he created the characters long ago and they all share
huge gobs of the same DNA, AND, that he can probably describe a New England
village and 80's upper middle class subdivision in his sleep), but still.

I have not read anything of his in a while but the same questions come to mind.
Are the walking wounded this ubiquitous?  Is the world so full of lonely, bored, unfulfilled people?
Nevertheless, the whole juxtaposition of truth and illusion, reality vs. fantasy was great fun.

catching up here...I really liked "Outage", especially, 'The alarm has stopped beeping. It's saying, 'All is well. All is normal.' It's saying, 'Get that man out of my house.'

Great stuff......and  so simply delivered. I saw it less regional than universal; We all want to lose ourselves to nature and to relieve ourselves of infrastructures, in a way. I guess the image of New England being such a culturally conservative region makes it just constipated enough a culture, in the general sense, to be especially vulnerable to the freeing cover of darkness. (having been a New Englander myself, I say this with.....no disrespect. )

[CANSTANDIT]

Did anyone read the Kahlil Gibran article, in the Books section, same issue as above? I LOVED it...I still remember working in a bookstore for years, and seeing The Prophet go out the door regularly.  I have not yet read, 'Jesus, Son of Man' I'm embarassed to say, but I plan to, now, esp after the quote from Judas's fictional mother...

. The article  really rang some bells about the author's true nature, or what it appears to have been, not being an expert on his life and times...Some comical humanoid business at the end about the handling of his posthumous affairs....I'd really recommend it not missing it.


More recently,  reading the short story 'Wakefield' by Doctorow, in the Jan 14th addition, gave me the sensation of catching dental floss in a tooth, and having to pull it back and forth, to try to remove it....I honestly thought it  started off interestingly enough, and perhaps I just got so miffed with the lead character's gyrations, I couldn't keep any intellectual distance. I did like, 'mine, mine!' though, that brought a smile.

[Rosewood]

Wonderful non-fiction piece in this week's New Yorker.
THE BISHOP'S DAUGHTER
A Father, A Faith and A Secret,
by Honor Moore.

Mentioned it today on the Forum News and Updates thread for possible insertion in TDS.

A daughter's understanding of her late father hinges quite a bit on a name found in his will
and a phone call. The call itself instantly, and in so many ways, took me back to BBM.

A must-read.

[garyd]

Glad to see you back in here, Rosie.

I too have read the "The Bishop's Daughter".

Interesting isn't it?  Makes one wonder just how many nooks and crannies of
society this whole issue affects.

Did not feel the emotional pull of BBM.  Did you?
Perhaps because we really do not learn enough about Paul.
i don't know.
Would appreciate your thoughts.

[CANSTANDIT]

Oh, goody...I didn't read that, so I'll make time to do so.

I've barely even done the captions! I suck royally at it, by the way. I never, ever get the popular concept.

[Ellen (tellyouwhat)]

Hi everybody.  I'm glad to see you're here.  I'm trying to get back to the New Yorker, now that I have finished reading E. Patterson's book "On Brokeback Mountain."  There will be a review next Tuesday in TDS.

But anyway, I have a stack of New Yorkers.  You should see the state of my desk  Papers demanding attention everywhere.  And New Yorkers.
 

[Rosewood]

Glad to see you back in here, Rosie.

I too have read the "The Bishop's Daughter".

Interesting isn't it?  Makes one wonder just how many nooks and crannies of
society this whole issue affects.

Did not feel the emotional pull of BBM.  Did you?
Perhaps because we really do not learn enough about Paul.
i don't know.
Would appreciate your thoughts.

Hi Gary,
no, not the pull of BBM. But, after all, what could equal AP's story?
It is in a class by itself.

But the 'secret thing' was interesting to me. This is non-fiction piece AND part of an upcoming book,
true, but still, even in excerpt, the whole idea of a 'secret' life resonates. Though in this case it seems the
daughter is almost relieved to know that her father had been happy, had found something that helped 'define'
him to her.

I was very touched by her reaction, the way she clung to the call.
There didn't seem to be much disconcertion about the fact that her father had had a male lover
for thirty years.

Jack left secrets behind for Lureen to riddle with and even for Ennis, were he the curious type.
But those secrets did not serve to bring anyone closer to him, even in memory.
Know what I mean? Most of his secrets did not seem to 'open' him to view.
The only secret that does that, of course, is the hidden shirt.
For Ennis, it is the ONLY secret worth knowing.

I did, though, imagine Ennis talking with a daughter of Jack's, had Jack had one.
I couldn't imagine Ennis talking like this to Jack's son.
I also imagined, had  Jack lived and Ennis died in the story, one of Ennis's
daughters contacting Jack. I find this entirely plausible.

I think I might like to read the book version of THE BISHOP'S DAUGHTER
one of these days.

[garyd]

Hi Rose,

It is, of course, sort of non-ficiton, which is why I think I may be interested in reading the entire book.
(Honor, as did her stepmother and the rest of the children, knew of Paul Moore's sexuality for several year's prior to his death and apparently agreed not to mention it until after his death.)
This excerpt leads the reader to believe that Honor did not know for sure, doens't it? ( I sense that there was suspicion but not actual acknowledgement). 

Bishop Moore was, of course, also an  influential religious leader with a national forum.

Moore apparently struggled with his sexuality but he does not seem to be injured in other areas of his life
in the way Ennis and Jack were. (resulting in Ennis's need for control and Jack's craving for acceptance and validation of his own worth)

Since neither Ennis nor Jack were ever really ever to resolve these issues, I don't know that the sort of
coversations your envision with their offspring could have been possible. 

[Rosewood]

Hi Rose,

It is, of course, sort of non-ficiton, which is why I think I may be interested in reading the entire book.
(Honor, as did her stepmother and the rest of the children, knew of Paul Moore's sexuality for several year's prior to his death and apparently agreed not to mention it until after his death.)
This excerpt leads the reader to believe that Honor did not know for sure, doens't it? ( I sense that there was suspicion but not actual acknowledgement). 

Bishop Moore was, of course, also an  influential religious leader with a national forum.

Moore apparently struggled with his sexuality but he does not seem to be injured in other areas of his life
in the way Ennis and Jack were. (resulting in Ennis's need for control and Jack's craving for acceptance and validation of his own worth)

Since neither Ennis nor Jack were ever really ever to resolve these issues, I don't know that the sort of
coversations your envision with their offspring could have been possible. 

Yes, of course, but what would life be without 'what ifs'?

And, by the way, do you think that had Jack lived, his son wouldn't have had any inkling of his
father's sexuality? Though I suppose it would all have depended on Jack's recklessness and the son's
perspicacity. He didn't look too promising in the film, that's for sure. In the short story I think he's
dyslexic, though that is not an especially brutal learning disability and I don't think it says anything
about intelligence which is quite a separate matter. I mean, you can be brilliant and be dyslexic.

But, imagine a phone call from Ennis, intercepted by Jack's grown up son. Imagine Ennis having the fortitude
to speak the truth. A different Ennis, probably, because Jack would have died years later and the son
would have been a young man by then. So, that's one conversation that might be interesting to imagine.

Imagine then, a phone call from Jack intercepted (or directly to, Jack being more the direct type)
by one of Ennis's grown-up daughters had Ennis been the one to die first. (As, tragically he has
in reality...Oh, but I forget, HL was NOT Ennis...Except in my own heart.) Anyway, Jack and
Ennis's daughter speaking on the phone, feeling each other out.
Maybe one of these days I'll write it...

Don't know that these phone calls would have, necessarily, resolved anything, but they sure would
have been interesting.

[garyd]

Don't know that these phone calls would have, necessarily, resolved anything, but they sure would
have been interesting.

Interesting perhaps but, in my opinion, impossible.
The Ennis and Jack I think I have come to know and understand in the story would not be capable of the
conversation you envision. 
Except, perhaps for Jack.
Jack, with his eagerness to please, to be accepted, to be validated, might be willing to open up to one of Ennis's children about the relationship. 
By the time that conversation could have occured, however, Jack would have developed an even keener sense of intuiting what another person actually wants to hear.(or is capable of hearing and actually accepting).
  He would have to feel extremely safe and I am not sure he ever felt safe or accepted except when he was with Ennis.
That, of course, is the tragic irony of the story. 

[Rosewood]

Don't know that these phone calls would have, necessarily, resolved anything, but they sure would
have been interesting.

Interesting perhaps but, in my opinion, impossible.
The Ennis and Jack I think I have come to know and understand in the story would not be capable of the
conversation you envision. 
Except, perhaps for Jack.
Jack, with his eagerness to please, to be accepted, to be validated, might be willing to open up to one of Ennis's children about the relationship. 
By the time that conversation could have occured, however, Jack would have developed an even keener sense of intuiting what another person actually wants to hear.(or is capable of hearing and actually accepting).
  He would have to feel extremely safe and I am not sure he ever felt safe or accepted except when he was with Ennis.
That, of course, is the tragic irony of the story. 

An aside:

When it comes to feeling 'safe' as suggested in your comments, I'd say the following:
A horrible but true-ism:
DESPITE his heartbreak and devastation over Jack's death, Ennis can't help, it seems to me,
feeling safe. Or at least, safer than he did before. Make any sense?
Hmmmm....I think I'll go post this over on Symbols and Imagery (or wherever else I think it might
fit without rancor from the mods) and where again probably, I will stir up a fuss.

A good fuss now and again doesn't hurt.

But back to the phone calls discussion:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
I've always adhered to this wise maxim of Arthur Conan Doyle's beloved Sherlock Holmes.

In BBM, especially, there are so many things we don't ACTUALLY know.
Of course, we suspect, but we don't fully KNOW.
So we eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, however improbable
seems like the truth to us.

Hence, my theory that had THIS changed, or THAT changed, had Jack NOT died when he did,
or had Ennis died instead, had...well, wouldn't the effect on the characters have altered
as well? So, a case could be made for phone calls that certainly would not exist, could not
exist in BBM in its present incarnation. Sure, but there's no law that says they couldn't
exist in another. And, after all, it is so much easier to say things in phone calls that you might
not ever say face-to-face.

I'm not being bull-headed about it, gary, I'm just saying that it doesn't seem all that improbable to me.
It's all about the BIG 'if'.

"If, brother...If..." as Steve McQueen's character says to Yul Brynner in The Magnificent Seven.

Ha! Obviously, gary, I'm loaded with quotes and ready to sling 'em  about with just the slightest
provocation.

Modification: I posted my 'safety' theory over on Jack and Ennis's Relationship thread, if you're interested,
gary. And you'll be happy to note that I gave you all the credit. Well, at least, I blamed you for making
me think. Ha!

[garyd]

Hence, my theory that had THIS changed, or THAT changed, had Jack NOT died when he did,
or had Ennis died instead, had...well, wouldn't the effect on the characters have altered
as well? So, a case could be made for phone calls that certainly would not exist, could not
exist in BBM in its present incarnation. Sure, but there's no law that says they couldn't
exist in another. And, after all, it is so much easier to say things in phone calls that you might
not ever say face-to-face.

I understand what your are saying here and i concede the point.
If THIS had changed or THAT had changed then, perhaps, your'
phone conversations could have occurred.

My point is that THIS or THAT did not occur.
Ennis and Jack are who they are AND
they are where they are.
We cannot change that. (and I am not interested in changing that)
 I am interested in  those things we can change.
We can change ourselves, assuage our fears, confront and denounce our prejudices and
perhaps, by our actions, assuage and eliminate the fears and prejudices of others
to the degree that there are fewer and fewer Ennis' and Jack's in the world.
(I suppose you can see I am not a big fan of fanfic and A/U) Ah well.

More OT.
What IF Paul Moore had dealt with his sexuality in a different way?
How would that have affected:
him,
his career,
his philosophy,
his two wives,
his children?

I don't know and I am not interested in re-writing his story.  His story is written.
The question is how will/should his affect ours? 

[Rosewood]

Oh m'dear, I am so with you on the idea of slash and fan fic and all that.
I've only ever read one example and it made me so sad.
Why?
Precisely BECAUSE it wasn't AP's Jack and Ennis anymore.
So there, I think we agree in general.

(More off-putting, is the speculative fiction about JG and HL and other 'real'
persons. It is so damned invasive of their privacy that it makes me cringe.
In my opinion, this is, really, going much too far in the name of fan idolatry.
No wonder some of these actors are so damned leery of us.)

Though, I admit, that lately I've been dreaming of a place
where nothing bad ever happened to our boys and maybe, just
maybe, I might write about it one of these days. I think it was Heath's
death that pushed me in this direction. But if I ever did anything remotely
like this it would be purely about fictional characters having NOTHING whatever to do
with the actors' reality.

I don't know yet if I'll give in to my muse.
If I do, I'll  be sure and warn you off.

Yes, it is right and proper to see BBM as the tragic lesson it is, but by the same
token, I can NEVER help but see and feel the love story at its unvarnished heart.
This is what keeps me coming back.

As for the bishop and his sexuality.
Well, I don't know, I haven't read the book.
I suspect that Moore acted as he felt compelled to act by all the stresses
and strictures of his time. I have a suspicion that there were many things,
besides his sexuality, that he kept to himself.
Though that doesn't seem to have stopped it all coming out.
As secrets will.
The daughter though, seems, at least in this short piece, wise enough
to accept what can't be changed if it adds to her developing picture
of a father who, wisely or not, seems to have kept himself to himself.

One does question the notion that this is a man who 'fell in love' with a woman
and married her late in life while still carrying on a thirty year affair with a man.
Or did I misread this?