Media coverage: how are we seen?

[milomorris]

my question is this, is it all that much different than stopping by the local bar for a an hour or two almost every day after work?

Not at all different from stopping at work and hanging out with a drinking buddy(ies). That's why I raised the platonic friendship angle. The author mentions no basis for a physical attraction.

Milo

[Flyboy]

Exactly my thoughts too Milo, no mention of any physical or even a truly intimate attraction. Sounded more like a Man who needed some male bonding or just a friend perhaps. Who knows? Surely Men, whether married or not, straight or otherwise, can form a strong friendship with another without having to sleep with them, what is Margo thinking?

[michaelflanagansf]

I think the key to Margo's response is this line from 'Dazed':

'I haven't had any desire to spend time with my wife since this person came into my life. I only want to talk with "Matt."'

I agree you can form strong friendships with either men or women when you are either married or in a loving relationship with someone.  However, if such a strong friendship forms that you no longer want to spend time with your partner then something is up - even without sex this is a form of emotional and psychological infidelity - and this is true regardless of the gender of the person.

So - to be clear on this point - if 'Dazed' had met a girl online and ONLY wanted to talk to her and no longer wanted to spend time with his wife I believe this would signal problems in the marriage too.  It is not the gender of the person in question with regard to the marriage - it is the desire to spend time with them the the exclusion of your spouse that is an issue.

Regarding his sexuality, however, it probably won't hurt the guy to talk to someone and get some clarification as to what he is feeling.  Remember that he (and not Margo) initially brings this up.  He says "Margo, we are both straight, and we both believe homosexuality is a sin."  So clearly they have already discussed this.  For me this topic doesn't come up with friends over beers too often - same or opposite sex, I don't discuss whether or not having sex with them would be a sin.  It just doesn't come up.  Work, other friends, movies, books, arts or sports yes - but I generally don't get into why we can't have sex together.  And that goes for friends that I say 'I love you' with too.  Generally the distinction is pretty clear (at least for me).

So again - the difference, in my opinion, between what 'dazed' is describing and hanging out with a buddy is that he wants to do this to the exclusion of his wife - and he has now lost the desire to spend time with her.  Having a beer with a friend once or twice a week for a couple of hours is quite a bit different from becoming obsessed with someone and losing interest in your partner.  If I were the partner of 'dazed' I would be more than a bit perturbed that he lost interest in me and were speaking to another person for hours every night.

I think it is a good idea for 'dazed' to figure out what is going on - whether this is just emotional infidelity or something more.  What is good (imho) is that we have moved to a time when instead of telling him that this is silly (or sick) and that he should get on with the real business of his life and only be interested in his wife (or in women) is that this topic can be addressed in the press. 

[milomorris]

Regarding his sexuality, however, it probably won't hurt the guy to talk to someone and get some clarification as to what he is feeling.  Remember that he (and not Margo) initially brings this up.  He says "Margo, we are both straight, and we both believe homosexuality is a sin."  So clearly they have already discussed this.  For me this topic doesn't come up with friends over beers too often - same or opposite sex, I don't discuss whether or not having sex with them would be a sin.  It just doesn't come up.  Work, other friends, movies, books, arts or sports yes - but I generally don't get into why we can't have sex together.  And that goes for friends that I say 'I love you' with too.  Generally the distinction is pretty clear (at least for me).

We have no details on what the content of the conversation about homosexuality entailed. It might have been as simple as, "I ain't queer." "Me neither. Minister says its a sin." You're right that platonic friends don't often discuss sex between themselves over beers, but they do discuss sex in general. We don't know how it went, and neither does Margo according to what is published.

IMO, the only person "Daze" needs to discuss this with, or get clarification from is "Matt." All that other rubbish Margo spouts is clearly designed to make her into some sort of Dr. Phil. ICK!!!

Milo

[michaelflanagansf]

IMO, the only person "Daze" needs to discuss this with, or get clarification from is "Matt." All that other rubbish Margo spouts is clearly designed to make her into some sort of Dr. Phil. ICK!!!

Milo

He's married and he no longer has a desire to spend time with his wife.  I think it would be a really good idea to have a discussion with her as well.  Or she may start having discussions with people in the legal profession instead of the 'caring' professions.

[gnash]

well, "daze" seems to think margo might have an answer for his troubles, ICK or not! 

all i can say is... daze honey, if you spend hours on the phone talking to a guy like that, and you say, "i love you" and you're both the type that think homosexuality is a sin... maybe you should get some condoms and lube and visit the undiscovered country to see what all the fuss is about.

okay. so they might not be gay. maybe they're just repressed homosexuals. maybe daze is just afraid to say he's gay. maybe they're just men who have found a new hobby, like skinning mule deer or rollerblading. maybe it's just so new and exciting and fun that he's feeling guility because it's taking him out of his "normal' world, away from his wife, toward a happiness he's never felt before. imagine if he got into knitting, cross stitch, or quilting, and said to himself, "god, i love working with fabric and yarn!" for somebody like him, that in intself could be a betrayal to his manhood.

he didn't say he felt sexual feelings toward this matt, but he's probably too afraid to mention that. in his days of two hours phone calls, i'm sure he talked about sex with this matt, and had a boner while doing it. plus the fact he's not interested in his wife any longer is kinda strange. then again, i'm sure a lot of men have more fun going fishing with their buddies than hanging out with their wives. hmm, maybe daze's wife is not there for him or something -- could that be why he's online doing chats in the first place? or maybe she's got something on the side that keeps her busy... and makes him feel lonely.

[john john]

I don't think Dazed would have written to Margo if weren't sexually attracted to Matt.

Was he hoping she'd say it wasn't a sin?

What religion can do!!!! 

[milomorris]

Regardless of what I/we think "Daze" & "Matt" should or should not do, I think there is a media issue here that needs to be discussed. The idea that this advice columnist--without considering any other possibilities--went directly to the "you're gay" conclusion. I think she saw an opportunity to be sensationalist, and add a little "spice" to her column. All the other comments she made about repression, self-loathing, etc. are just there to add further titillation for the reader.

Beyond that, her advice to get professional help makes it sound like needs to get his sexuality diagnosed. That makes it sound like its a dysfunction rather than a discovery.

He can talk to counselors at LGBT community centers until he's blue in the face. They'll be able to answer some of his questions. But I agree with gnash. There really is only one way for "Daze" to know for sure: he and "Matt" need to give sex a try. If it turns out to be all wrong, he can go back to his life as is. If it turns out to be all right, then he and his wife can seek out professional help to explore their options.

Milo

[john john]

I agree Milo,

but there's the nagging 'sin' factor. He has 'sinned' already IMO by saying I love you to a man he seems really smitten with.

So, counseling BEFORE they have sex?

[milomorris]

but there's the nagging 'sin' factor. He has 'sinned' already IMO by saying I love you to a man he seems really smitten with.

This probably belongs in the Christianity thread. But there are numerous layers to this sin thing.

- Do these guys really, truly, profoundly believe that homosexuality is sinful? Or is it just something they have heard from the pulpit or other church-goers over time without giving it much thought?

- Are they open to differing interpretations of scripture that refute the claims of those who claim homosexuality is sinful?

- How much do they really care if it is a sin or not? There plenty of people out there doing lots of things that they are told are sins, but it doesn't stop them.

Milo

[Flyboy]

Problem I have with those 'advice columnists' is that you never get the whole story from their camp, and if they do get inquiries about their responses, that's when you find out there was a whole lot more to the letter from a reader. So, I'm going with the assumption that Margo had more info than she was sharing..........giving her the benefit of the doubt here..........

[michaelflanagansf]

Regardless of what anyone here may think of advice columnists (or for that matter television advice programs) they continue to have a big following.  The reason I posted the 'Margo' article was because it was among the 'most popular' articles on yahoo news for days (and the most emailed).

So no matter what we think about what their advice, it's important to keep track of what they are saying.

[michaelflanagansf]

Another article which caught my attention (from the blogosphere this time) is from Truth Wins Out - a website with tracks (and opposes) the ex-gay movement.  Here is one which points out a book that Mike Huckabee wrote with George Grant entitled 'Kids Who Kill.'  George Grant is also the author of a book entitled 'Legislating Immorality: The Homosexual Movement Comes Out of the Closet' - so it should be no surprise that in Huckabee's book the following line appears:

“It is now difficult to keep track of the vast array of publicly endorsed and institutionally supported aberrations–from homosexuality and pedophilia to sadomasochism and necrophilia.”

Here is the TruthWinsOut.org article:

http://www.truthwinsout.org/news/truth-winsoutorg-alarmed-by-mike-huckabee%e2%80%99s-anti-gay-appearance-on-meet-the-press-and-ties-to-known-extremists/#more-322

And here is an associated article from the website on George Grant:

http://www.truthwinsout.org/news/huckabee-cavorting-with-dangerous-ideologues-from-religious-fringe-movement/#more-324

[Flyboy]

Huckabee, huh? Is it really possible for a 50+ Man to lose over a 100 lbs like he did? Some insist he is the Anti-Christ, have you heard that one? Wonder what he did with all that hangy-downy stuff leftover from that drastic weight loss? LOL.......

[quithammerin]

Anybody interested in another advice column? Here's one that is less complex than the previous one, and I guess it's about how homophobes are seen, not gay guys themselves.  But it led to this front-page-of-the-Life-section headline:  Homophobic father should leave his hate at the altar.  The "relationships"  advice column is usually buried in the section, but it seems to have been noticed, it's one of the most viewed articles this time.   The letter is from a woman whose ex has refused to attend their daughter's wedding if their son's male partner is invited. 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080103.wlgrouptherapy/BNStory/lifeFamily/home