Second Night in the Tent

[garyd]

Almost everybody hears somebody say someething, and almost nobody hears nobody say anything.  But that's not to say that more than a few people hear the same person saying the same thing.  See poll at top of page!  I think you're the first to hear "Gimme a little smooch, honey-bun," though.

Hmm, maybe Jack starred as "Nellie" in the Lightening Flat Junior High production of "South Pacific". 

"A hundred an one pounds of fun....."

"BBM may call you, anytime time any day,
Come to me, your special mountain,
Come away, come away".

[fofol]

   Actually, I've tried it and with a little practice I got it to sound a lot like a pretty good ventriloquist's attempt.  With more practice, who knows, maybe my co-workers could have me examined if not outright committed...

[CANSTANDIT]

Scoff now, listen to Jack say, 'you're okay, sweetie, you're ok', in the columbine scene, later.....I love how selective people's romantic -Jack-lovey -dovey -Ennis  pov's are. 

I never hear much more than, 'i'ts allright, it's allright, it' okay, hey, c'mere'. No sorries, no gimme's; however, I never MISS 'you're ok, sweetie.' That to me is clear as a bell. Go figure.

[Paul029]

None of these options are 100% correct. Sorry. My post will humbly explain.
Paul029

[CANSTANDIT]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I can't wait!!! Welcome!!

[Paul029]

     Has it been decided whether Ennis actually says: "I'm sorry..." before Jack replies; "It's alright, it's alright..."?
     There has been talk about this elsewhere but I'd like a certain answer if possible. Thanks.

I live in Australia, and have only recently brought myself to the stage where I could hire the DVD and watch BBM. [And this is my first real post.]
I knew it would be an devastating experience, as I’d once read the novella on which the film is based, so put it out of my mind for a few years.

Anyway, I’ve now watched it several times in the past two weeks (and been progressively more shattered each time), and have been watching a few sites where fans discuss the film.  So I thought I’d add some fuel to the fire, so to speak, about what was said, or not said, during the second tent scene. My comments are based only on the film, and do not refer to what is written either in the screenplay or the novella.

I have the Region 4 DVD and have listened to the sound through headphones, as well as enabling captioning to check what was said.

Here goes:

As I mentioned, there is no clearly audible dialogue in the second tent scene. But, after Ennis enters, hat in hand (a lovely image of going a'courting, by the way, and he's silent for the whole scene) Jack removes the hat and goes to kiss him, stops, touches Ennis’s face , says quietly “Come on,” and then kisses him.

He then says, almost inaudibly, “I’m sorry; I’m sorry; I swear.”

I can understand the apology - he sees that that the kiss is too intimate an action for Ennis. But the “I swear” is a guarantee, one that means he is being true to Ennis.  This has an amazing congruence with the last line of the film, doesn’t it?

What is most interesting (and I have to keep to keep a firm grip on my feelings here) is what shows in the captioning.

Not “I’m sorry; I’m sorry; I swear,” but “I swear; I swear; I swear.”

I have a few other thoughts about the final scenes of BBM, but they will have to wait for a bit. I hope I haven’t ridden over already trodden ground, and that I've not rocked a few boats...

[CANSTANDIT]

Well, there are lots of different things heard, as you probably realize, depending on who is listening...One thing is that the captions are not consistent, depending on the translations. If you play with the languages on your remote, you'll see what I mean.

For the longest time, I heard, 'I'm sorry' from Ennis..but my final conlusion, was that Ennis doesn't speak at all, because I could not see his mouth move at all-except for one phrase, that I always thought was spoken by him, immediately before the first kiss...and I still hear it, but others say it is Jack murmuring something. I can't make it out, ie, the individual words.

I believe a 'brokie' that met Jake asked about that, and he said he did not recall dialogue spoken by Heath in that scene. But again, that was a few years after they filmed....I wonder if we will ever all hear the same thing.

On thing, Paul, is the impact seems to grow with time... I know for me, it grew then kind of peaked, and has just stayed there, and has evolved into something I've incorportated inside of myself. It definitely has enriched my life, and I've met some truly brillant and good-hearted people here. But I think each of us takes what we need from it, and only each of us can decide what that is. I do hope, that despite how painful it may all be at first, that over time, you'll find the obsession a rewarding one.

[Paul029]

Hello Canstandit,
Yes, I've read somewhere that captions may not be 100% accurate, but found it odd that, to me, Jack twice saying he's sorry could be twice incorrectly captioned as "I swear." I did think that perhaps the Jake (Jack) ad-libbed, but I know what I heard him say. And there has been so much discussion about what was said in the second tent scene in this forum (must admit I didn't get past page 30 out of the 234 pages on the topic) that I felt I could offer some clarification. Perhaps the Region 4 DVD differs from what was shown on-screen, or on other regions' DVDs.

About Jack's "I'm sorry" - Ennis doesn't say anything - he's silent for the scene - I initially thought he was apologising for the attempted kiss, from which Ennis, understandably, draws back (a kiss is too intimate a connection for some men - sex is only physical, but a kiss is intimate and emotional) but I did hear Jack say it, and now realise (especially as he says "Don't worry" first) that he's apologising for breaking through Ennis's emotional armour/barrier during the first tent scene;  which Ennis accepts and responds to, beautifully.

About "obsession" -  I suppose my few-years-delayed viewing of the movie was because I didn't "want to go there" earlier; I knew how the story ended and wasn't ready to see it visualised, if you know what I mean. Obsessed? Me? Yes - BBM is very close to the bone. I worked in country Australia for several years in the 60s and experienced the retrictive and bigotted social/cultural background displayed in the movie. I was the same age as Jack and Ennis, back then.

One thing I've noticed is how many posters so easily go off-topic; wild speculation about things not stated or shown in the movie seems to be rather beside the point, I think; we only have what we see and hear to go by, and some posters seem to get right off the track, which is why I'm going to restrict myself to write, in future posts, about the movie - not the published screenplay, nor the novella, nor what someone said in an interview. BBM is its own entity with a beginning, a middle and an end, and should be treated as such, I feel; and whatever we wish to know is all there, ready to be unearthed. In reference to the first part of your first sentence: I agree, the listener/viewer interprets the movie according to his/her predilection/personality/bias/whatever, but objective analysis is always better. [Apologies for possibly going off the track myself.]

There are so many posts about BBM that it would take a lifetime to read them all, or no daytime job, but I've come across a couple which seem to "hit the nail on the head" about some important scenes in the movie and I'll post some affirmative comments on the forum later.

[CANSTANDIT]

Yes, those daytime jobs are th pits... ..I do hope you come back and join in on these discussions; nothing like some new eyes on a topic.

Regards,
CSI

[Dal]

Hi Paul

Welcome to the forum and the thread!  We can always use some new viewpoints.  Congratulations on getting as far as you did, in reading the old postings.  The forum has generated quire a few.  I expect we could publish them, and build a bridge from my house to yours with the paper.  See you around!

Dal
Philadelphia

[Ministering angel]

Hi Paul, and welcome from another Aussie (although I have a Region 2 DVD  )

That's an interesting addition to the debate on what is said. One thing I know for sure is that we'll never all agree. I can't even agree with myself. 

As for sticking to the film, I guess one problem is that a film is more subjective than the written word, and due to its collaborative nature a film also allows aspects to slip through, which an author could control more tightly.

I look forward to your next 1000 or so posts.

[Tammy]

I agree that we'll never all agree!

I've watched that scene many, many times. I don't see or hear Ennis saying anything - absolutely nothing - and Jack saying "It's alright" and nothing else.  I don't hear I'm sorry, and can't imagine how it would fit into that scene.  "It's alright" is what I hear said several times by Jack to help try and put Ennis at ease - it makes perfect sense, and it's what I hear, so I go with that.  And really nothing else.

 

[CANSTANDIT]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I heard something else, Tammy , too that I could never verify; just one other poster has heard it, and we spent like 2 hours one night sharing ideas and replays of it, to try to figure it out!

[Paul029]

Thanks for the welcome, Dal and Ministering Angel - much appreciated.
Here goes with another (brief?) thought about the second night in the tent:

I’ve read a few posts which asked when the second tent scene occurred. It’s a valid question (and may have already been answered elsewhere) because the film doesn’t really signpost whether it occurs the very next night, or much later. I thought a clue to when it occurred could be found, strangely enough, by investigating Ennis’s shirts. :-)

(Jack seems to have only a single faded blue denim shirt, possibly Levi, with mother-of-pearl buttons.  He may have more than one, but as he seems to always wear "a" blue denim shirt, the others would have to be almost identical, and his blue jeans.)

When we first see Ennis he wears a shirt with a fine check pattern of blue/grey lines on a pale background beneath his faded brown jacket, and he carries a small crumpled paper sack, too small for much more than a second shirt and his shaving items. (Don't know about the yellow waterproof coat he wears at times; it may be Jack's?)

Both men wear these clothes until they arrive at the first camp site until (more than two weeks later according to Jack's speech about Ennis talking a lot), Ennis, now wearing a second shirt (a brown and green check shirt which we only see fully, and for the first time, after the fight on the men’s last day in the mountains), picks up supplies, hands over the following week’s order, meets the bear and arrives late at the camp. [I like long sentences.]

In the next scenes (where he shoots the elk, cooks, and leaves the camp site to look after the sheep) Ennis wears his first shirt again, and it's seen hanging on a rail with his jacket while he shaves and washes himself in a subsequent scene.

When he and Jack move to the second camp site (and they talk about the Pentecost), Ennis is wearing his second shirt again. They have their first encounter in the tent and the next morning Ennis rides off, broods, finds the dead sheep then meets up with Jack on the hillside, still wearing his second shirt.

The next scene shows Jack washing some clothes on the river bank, Ennis’s first shirt and possibly one of his own identical blue denim shirts, or his jeans. The following scene is the second tent scene, in which Ennis is once more wearing his first shirt, which is now dry. (I realise I’ve taken a rather roundabout way to get here but the way Ennis swaps from one shirt to another is a little intriguing.)

So, the second tent scene, in order for the shirt to be dry, and unless I'm mistaken, cannot be the night following their first tent scene (unless the weather has been very warm), but some time after that night. Presumably Ennis spent the intervening night/s away from Jack, looking after the sheep, sleeping alone in the pup tent, and brooding some more.

Jack doing the laundry also shows an interesting aspect of their relationship.

There’s another issue I've noticed about clothing as well. In the men’s last scene with Aguirre Ennis wears a bright yellow waterproof coat, and Jack wears a different jacket to his usual dark green, sheepskin lined one. While we’ve seen the yellow coat before, Jack’s coat is new to us; but when he leaves Signal (and Ennis) he’s wearing his old green one again. Any comments? Hope I haven't bored anyone...

[Paul029]

Hi Paul, and welcome from another Aussie (although I have a Region 2 DVD  )

That's an interesting addition to the debate on what is said. One thing I know for sure is that we'll never all agree. I can't even agree with myself. 

As for sticking to the film, I guess one problem is that a film is more subjective than the written word, and due to its collaborative nature a film also allows aspects to slip through, which an author could control more tightly.

I look forward to your next 1000 or so posts.

The question of subjectivity always arises when a book is made into a film, doesn't it? And not only that of the viewer, who may or may not have read the source material, but also, of course, that of the film-makers themselves. It's all very well to respond subjectively to a film, and often the ideal way to respond ( and I'm thinking specifically of Wong Kar-Wai's In The Mood For Love, here - another story of thwarted lovers) but I'm aiming for objectivity when putting my thoughts on this (public) forum.

Even though I've recently ordered the "Story to Screenplay" book I won't let it influence the way I'm affected by the movie per se, which I see as a stand-alone effort, entire in itself, if you like. I don't intend to double-check every detail in "Story to Screenplay" to see where the movie actually differs, for example, but appreciate BBM the movie as a discrete work of art. Hmm, perhaps I should unbend a little...