Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together

[janjo]

Completely, gres! It feels to me that he has tried to get something together with the "ranch neighbour" and found him wanting. He isn't Ennis, and never can be. He may indeed through risky behaviour with Jack be the cause inadvertantly of Jack's death, but I don't think he was of much other significance.
Hence "I WISH I KNEW how to quit you."
Jack not only still loves Ennis, he loves him so much that it completely sabotages any attempts Jack may make to have other relationships.
Jack cannot move on.

[gres]

I have the same feeling again, Jess. I even see  this plan with the ranch neighboor as Jack only trying to survive a situation he wasn't equipped to deal with. Just like he did rodeoning cus he couldn't get it right with his father but never stopped wanting to get it right, you see what i mean? His plans to go back to LF and talking about Ennis at first and then for that neighboor has also a hidden point of Jack's inability to let it go, an attempt to get it right with his father and make his father what he thought Mr Twist couldn't see in him. The same feeling i have Jack was doing with Ennis, too.

[Desecra]

Don't want to get into 'quit' and the rest of the stuff after the last scene togehter,  but I agree with the rest.  'I wish I knew how to quit you' suggests that Jack has thought about and even tried to disengage from Ennis but has been unable to do so.   What would be the point of saying that if he'd already decided to stop seeing Ennis?  I think it's the dozy embrace thoughts which change things for Jack - I'm just not seeing the signs that he was planning to leave before the last meeting.   If anything, it seems the other way round - that the affair is pushing him to test the waters for more with Ennis.

But I'll wait for Rosewood to explain what she's seeing there. 

[Dal]

Don't want to get into 'quit' and the rest of the stuff after the last scene togehte

A good priciple for all, I'm sure!  Thank you for noticing that the conversation was headed off the road Des.  By all means continue following the flow guys, in Did Jack Qhit Ennis.

[cazzyj]

I'm curious about the idea that Jack was already planning not to see Ennis again.   What leads you to that?   Jack's confession the night before, his complaints about the August meeting being cancelled and the news that he'd talked about bringing Ennis up to Lighting Flats (until 'this spring' - presumably after the last meeting) give me the impression that Jack was hoping for more from Ennis.   It seems to me that Jack has gone a bit further than he ever has in the past at this last meeting - that seems to me that Jack is getting more desparate to be with Ennis, not less.    Or maybe you're seeing that trying to move forward means being willing to take the risk of losing Ennis - i.e. he's more likely to do it when he's planning to leave anyway?

I feel they were both desperate for more.  Jack's confession and the blowup prior to parting just brought Ennis' desperation to the surface - a push he obviously wasn't expecting hence his breakdown.  "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" was perhaps a starting point for Ennis - perhaps he really did want to fix it?  I don't know, but that's how I took that line the first time I heard it and still to this day.  That Ennis was finally faced with the truth of their relationship and the truth of Jack's (and his own) feelings, which were held back all this time.  Could be wishful thinking on my part, but that is how I have always viewed this entire scene.

I think that also determines his eventual decision to breakup with Cassie - but that is for another thread obviously. 

[Desecra]

Yes, eventually you feel that Ennis would have to have broken down a little.   The films a bit ambiguous there, although the book doesn't give any sign of him changing.  I think that at that point, all he can do is maintain the status quo.  So although he may desparately want more with Jack, he's not able to give it, even under the 'threat' of Jack possibly leaving (and I believe he knows about the 'other one'). 

[Sandy]

crazzyj,

That's a very good point. I think it does begin to open Ennis to the possibilities that Jack's love offers. it's so shocking to him that he collapses, in part because his body (apart from his conscious mind) is beginning to feel the what that love means. And if he weren't opened up to that possibiliy, his later discovery of the nested shirts and what they represent would be much harder to fathom. Ennis isn't one to come to an instantaneous decision or discovery.

Sandy

[Desecra]

Yes, takes him about a year usually .

[Sandy]

And that's when he's on the ball. 

[Rosewood]

WHY on earth should Jack be afraid of Ennis's response?
Why should Jack be afraid of a future Ennis collapse IF HE HAS NO PLANS TO SEE HIM AGAIN?
IF Jack has already drifted away, why should he care what Ennis does or feels or doesn't do and doesn't feel?
When men move on, they move on OR at least, that's been my experience of it.
In film and otherwise.

I'm curious about the idea that Jack was already planning not to see Ennis again.   What leads you to that?   Jack's confession the night before, his complaints about the August meeting being cancelled and the news that he'd talked about bringing Ennis up to Lighting Flats (until 'this spring' - presumably after the last meeting) give me the impression that Jack was hoping for more from Ennis.   It seems to me that Jack has gone a bit further than he ever has in the past at this last meeting - that seems to me that Jack is getting more desparate to be with Ennis, not less.   Or maybe you're seeing that trying to move forward means being willing to take the risk of losing Ennis - i.e. he's more likely to do it when he's planning to leave anyway?

No, no, no, I'm not saying that at all!
Sorry for not making myself clearer.
My questions were, I guess, a bit facetious in nature because I think JUST THE OPPOSITE.
I was hoping the answers to my questions would prove my point.
I am firmly opposed to the idea that Jack was planning any escape route.
Though I'm sure the idea had crossed his mind over the years - he wouldn't be human if it hadn't.
(Certainly, these characers are nothing if they're not human. Would we still be here otherwise?)

No, my argument is this:
IF Jack WERE planning to stop seeing Ennis THEN he would not have been that worried about Ennis's
reaction, his mind and emotions would already have been elsewhere. That's why, in my heavy-handed way,
I used the example of the scene from that other film. I thought it would clarify what I was tryiing to say.

The fact that he is, evidently, still very much in the moment with Ennis, proves to me (at least)
that they would have continued to meet.

[Rosewood]

.....*sigh*  I love Jack.

Me too.

[Desecra]

Thanks, Rosewood - yes, I knew you thought the opposite but was just wondering if you'd seen something which would suggest the original idea.  I wondered if it was the fact that Jack was more forward - i.e. he's willing to risk more, all or nothing.   I agree - if we were meant to think he was planning an escape, we'd be shown, I think.  (And the story wouldn't be nearly so satisfying ). 

[Rosewood]

Thanks, Rosewood - yes, I knew you thought the opposite but was just wondering if you'd seen something which would suggest the original idea.  I wondered if it was the fact that Jack was more forward - i.e. he's willing to risk more, all or nothing.   I agree - if we were meant to think he was planning an escape, we'd be shown, I think.  (And the story wouldn't be nearly so satisfying ). 

Oh, I see what you mean, Des.
My original questions sprang from something Min. Angel said in a post a while back. (I think I originally outlined the thing.)
It was just something about Jack walking away from the Last Scene afraid to bring any of it up again for fear
of distressing Ennis.

I got to thinking, well, why should he fear that if he's not coming back?
One thing led to another and I realized I'd never looked at it from this point of view before.

[CANSTANDIT]

that's a good point about where Jack's mind is at, at the moment of the Last Scene-let be, let be-don't disrupt the torquing, maybe-?

[Rosewood]

Oh yeah, as played by JG, Jack is still in the moment with Ennis.
EXCEPT - and you'll notice this if you watch the last confrontation closely - EXCEPT when Jack
stands staring at the water. There are a couple of moments when his concentration drifts
and you do wonder if he's in the act of leaving.

Just as Ennis collapses, Jack seems DRAWN back to the moment, almost against his will.
There's a touch of exasperation there that tells me he is close to the line of no return.
Notice how he hangs onto his gloves. He never drops them.

But in the end, Jack cannot help himself.
Love overrides everything else.
The 'torquing' that AP speaks about, takes place precisely because both men
still love each other beyond any other consideration. If we're talking 'torque' I guess
we could say that love 'fuels' it.

How's that?