Last Scene w/ Ennis and Jack Together

[CANSTANDIT]

I was thinking that, Sandy, ie, how to transition it elsewhere...I'm done with it, at any rate.

[o2binla]

Yes, after I posted  I tried to remember  what the situation was. It crossed my mind that I may have been assuming too much. Dare I say, it may just have been something that AP didn't consider?

LOL!  Now this is the one possibility I *definitely* don't believe... 

It's hinted that Jack has a rising sense of self-destructiveness, and of course one of the ultimate expressions of that is unsafe sex.  I don't think he would have wanted to give anything to Ennis, but yeah he could have lied and said he got whatever from a woman.  Also, condom usage was not the norm in the early 80s, according to my memories, and Jack doesn't seem like he'd be a stickler for it. 

I think this reading is far afield, but it is not outside the realm of possibility given the story's timing, that Jack or Jack and Ennis both have contracted HIV by the final scene.  They're also arguing just as HIV is about to reshape gay identity culturally in a big way.

Its timing w/HIV just makes the last scene that much more complicated, which is why I think AP included it on purpose.  As I've said before on other threads, I think Jack and Ennis are more than just two individuals: they also embody cultural attitudes and historical situations. 

After posting the other day, I started thinking that "hell yes I been to Mexico" doesn't just mean, yes I have sex with men.  It's also Jack saying, yes I have other partners b/c you don't give me enough of you. 

Anyway: I do think Jack had multiple partners, that HIV was on the sidelines but not center stage in their relationship, and also that Jack sick and tired of the closet and getting ready to come out of the closet one way or another -- which might be why he mentioned the ranch neighbor to his parents, rather than b/c he really cared all that much for Randall. 

[Desecra]

Where's the best place to take the AIDS discussion, as I wouldn't mind continuing it?

and also that Jack sick and tired of the closet and getting ready to come out of the closet one way or another -- which might be why he mentioned the ranch neighbor to his parents, rather than b/c he really cared all that much for Randall

I see some of that too, I think - a desire to be done with the pretence.   Ennis doesn't change in 16 years, but Jack is meeting gay men and seeing changes.   He had got all ready to leave Lureen and live with Ennis back in 1967 - how much more ready must he be by the 1980s?   I think Randall is in the right place at the right time really.   Although I don't see why Jack wouldn't care for him.    I don't agree that the mention of the ranch neighbour is his 'coming out'.    He's already done that by talking about Ennis really.   So I don't think he says it to be 'out', but I do think that saying it reflects the fact that he's fed up with being 'in'.    (Not wanting to stray into Q territory but) if Jack really did give up on Ennis on at the end, I don't see him settling back with Lureen.   He's had the pretence with Lureen, and the sneaking around in Texas, and the pretence with Ennis for most of his life.   It's sad that the place he's most himself is the place he wanted to get away from. 

[Dal]

Where's the best place to take the AIDS discussion, as I wouldn't mind continuing it?

If a topic has no home, "General Discussion" is waiting.

[Desecra]

General discussion it is, then .

[CANSTANDIT]

Something came up the other day that I thought was worth additional chat, if anyone is interested...

The idea of what Jack means, does not mean, is trying to hurt Ennis over, when he reduces their time together to 'a couple of HAF's once or twice a year'. How do you see that, and what do you guess is the impact on Ennis-I mean, is it part of the collapsing? Or is it a build up to it?

[Desecra]

I don't know - Ennis has reduced their relationship to sex, really.   But on the other hand, Ennis (book Ennis anyway) has never denied the friendship bond between them - he showed that on Brokeback, and he tells Jack about it at the reunion.   So he's openly admitted to it being more than sex. 

I've always tended to feel that Jack is saying that he doesn't get enough of Ennis, that Ennis has reduced what's between them to sex, rather than that Jack doesn't get enough sex in general.   But I'm not sure how Ennis takes it.   If he takes it the first way, then Jack is almost rejecting Ennis's acknowledgement of their deep, loving friendship - as well as the way Ennis has built his life around seeing Jack.  If he takes it the second way then it's about Jack being gay, and highlighting again that what they do is what gay men do. 

[CANSTANDIT]

Well, you just illustrated the two conflict that may have caused his knees to buckle-the love vs the queer fear. It helps me understand how he might've looked at that....thanks.

[Ministering angel]

What else can Jack say? He can't say, I love you. He's already tried saying he misses Ennis so bad .... and all he got was sex in return. Sex is what Ennis offers so sex is the basis of his complaint. Jack is caught in a bind. All he can say is, This is what you give me and you don't give me enough. Please sir, I want some more.

And he effectivelt tells Ennis that his best isn't good enough, a real body blow to a man who HAS been trying his best to give Jack what he can.

[CANSTANDIT]

I also agree it was a 'body blow' as you put it....A sense of failure at the most important relationship of his life; combined with the revulsion-yes, revulsion-of Jack actually bringing up the sex and asking for more.....I think this would have initiated a knee-jerk response: Not because of the experience of the lovemaking; but because Jack is talking about it, asking for more, bringing into the light the 'dark joy' you so perfectly described in your latest story...

[CANSTANDIT]

'Most disturbing of all, Brokeback Mountain shows the violence some men who desire men may feel toward other man-loving men, even toward their lovers: to a man like Ennis who wants to pass, Jack's increasing openness is threatening, since it may make his own sexual difference visible. When Ennis confronts Jack about Jack's trip to Mexico, Ennis threatens to kill him, which places Ennis nearly at the same point on the spectrum as his father and the men who murder Jack.'


this is an excerpt from the wonderful Eric Patterson article of Jan 1, 2008, linked in the General Discussion thread, about the male love, homophobia and Brokeback Mountain. Its an insightful, interesting piece, and tends to echo much of what has been said on these threads about how Ennis negotiated his relationship with Jack. Above is especially interesting-I wonder if some research was actually done on this Forum! 

[Desecra]

Interesting point about Jack's 'increasing openness' - I suppose it does get closer to home, until at the end he's sneaking around on his own doorstep.   I always feel Jack would have been out-ish (not to everybody, but not married and closetted) for years if things had been different.   I've even wondered if he would have married Lureen if it hadn't been for Ennis (2 or 3 years of finding that he couldn't recapture what he had with Ennis might even have started to persuade him that he wasn't going to find what he was looking for from men in general - whereas he wouldn't  have known what he was looking for if he hadn't met Ennis).   But as time goes on, he's still as completely closeted with Ennis as he ever was - until the last meeting.

I'm not convinced that Ennis sees himself as a gay man trying to pass though.

[CANSTANDIT]

Oh, he's not, IMO-he is not that self-aware. But he could be 'trying to pass' without knowing it, do you see what I mean? Alot of people do that, as we all know, and do it unconciously-that's the source of our most heated debates.
The author clearly sees them in a more contemporary light, ie, the bashing assumed as the cause of Jack's death. I don't agree with all of his points about the story, but I do agree with most of his points about how the story bumps up to reality. And I really like how, as a gay man-I am assuming-he understands and kind of verifies, from an analytical pov, how homophobia tends to work both in terms of the individual and the group.

I think the moment of the last scene, is an easy switch between Ennis taking on the role of Jack's presumed attackers, and the role of the father and the boys from Sage-they are interchangable.

[Ministering angel]

It's interesting (and chilling) that although Jack is thinking about Ennis's lack of acceptance of him when he remembers the DE - and maybe, the thought, they'd never got much further than that - he might just as easily be thinking about Ennis aged 9. Or even himself aged 3. They were both trapped in their childhoods to an extent, and never got much further.

[Sandy]

That's an interesting point, Mini. It may be that DRH was the instrument of their fear and wounded personalities, but the emotional deprivation of the childhoods may have kept them from fully becoming mature adults.