Last Scene ("I swear" scene)

[CANSTANDIT]

I get the difference, I do...yet, I'm still-yes, STILL  -rather stuck on Ennis's processing of these two events separately.  I'm not sure I'm stating this clearly-in fact, I know I'm not.

Let me try it this way: The ashes are saying something very important about the time on BBM...and at that point Ennis is not aware of the shirts. So does he miss what Jack is indicating by wanting to be buried up there? Either he gets it, or he's not equipped to understand it yet. I'm thinking the latter...I don't think we can discount the import of the message of the ashes even though they are also a tool to give Ennis and us some information..I realize it's a  piecemeal process, but in one way, it's not. The ashes are an indicator of how he felt about BBM-and by extrapolation, Ennis. Ennis would eventually have to make that leap, even without the shirts, I think..he can't not ever realize what Jack wanting to be buried there means. I think the shirts must give him the clear-cut answer, but maybe he is just in too much shock to 'get it'. I realize I'm bucking some very basic accepted canon of the story, ie, the shirts, but I wonder....

[CANSTANDIT]

After chatting off line with my muse  , I am reminded that the ashes are indeed an indicator of love, but another apple to an orange: The shirts are ultimately the revelation of how Ennis failed the love part; he remembers the punch with the shirts, as Des pointed out, too.

So the shirts do alot more than show the love-they show Ennis what really went wrong.

Thanks Marian for the re-walk thru-it was very interesting.

[Cally]

I've been thinking quite a bit on what you've been saying, CSI in particular.  I'm not sure of the answer, but Lureen's suggestion does move Ennis on in his journey of awareness.  Making the phonecall was the first big step, and then the visit to LF - I wonder if he would have done that without Lureen?  I think it's possible: Jack's death has already so shaken his inhibitions.  And then his opening up and, almost innocent, self-exposure to the Twists, especially in the face of OMT's antagonism, seem to have carried him forward to a state of readiness for the lightning bolt of the shirts.

[CANSTANDIT]

I agree..the ashes are a step in a certain direction; he of course, also, would not get the full force of the love, until he felt the full force of the regret: You don't know what you've got til it's gone.

[suelyblu]

When Alma Jnr visits Ennis to tell him she is getting married and asks him to come to the wedding, he gives excuses why not to go (The round up in The Tetons)and when he looks at Alma Jnr he sees the disappointment in her face, suddenly he says he will go to the wedding. Why do you think he did that?  Do you think he had learned a lesson from keep saying  "NO"  to Jack and living with the regret that he didn't   "give  " a little more?  Now was the time to share things  with the people he loved most?


                                              suelyblu  xx

[janjo]

Yes! He realised that not putting the people he loved first had been a disaster. He also says, "they'll have to find themselves a NEW cowboy," the old one, the man of the type he had been himself in the past, was now gone.

[CANSTANDIT]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Interesting about the 'new' cowboy...Do you see this as a positive thought for Ennis about himself?

[janjo]

Yes.

[Rosewood]

I think they have two different meanings.   The ashes show that Jack thought of Brokeback in a way that he didn't think of the other trips (we know it's because of the DE, I think).   They show that Jack talked about his wishes to Lureen, but also that they were secret from Ennis.   Which also showed that Jack was thinking about dying without Ennis and didn't involve Ennis in his "wishes" (he left no instructions for contacting Ennis - somebody else would have scattered the ashes withouth knowing what they meant, if it happened).   And of course, they show how important Ennis was to him.

The shirts first of all remind Ennis of the punch (and all the meaning of that, which we've discussed).   They also show that Jack knew what he felt for Ennis back on Brokeback - he already knew that he shouldn't let Ennis out a his sights, but was unable to tell him.   (I think they also have symbolic meaning - Jack kept their love "in the closet", hiding some of it even from Ennis, and the long suspension also suggests the lack of progress in the relationship - maybe they never got much farther, etc.).  And then, I agree that they are reminder of the DE - two in one, what should have been. 

The saddest thing: your thought that Jack '...left no instructions for contacting Ennis...'
Even then, even in the event of his death, facing his own mortality, Jack kept their secret.
Jack continued to sequester Ennis.
This to me, proves his love (the 'rules' of that love) in yet another way.

But if I were Ennis, this would have to hurt like hell.
He would see the necessity of it and even possibly, thank Jack for it, but it would still have to
hurt like very hell.

OR

Perhaps Jack understood that upon his death, if he went first, Ennis would eventually get
the particulars from Lureen. Ennis had his phone number after all.
Would he have been able to think that logically, that far ahead?
Or was this possibly just a way of punishing Ennis?
Was Jack ever this Machiavellian?
I'm doubtful.

[CANSTANDIT]

But if I were Ennis, this would have to hurt like hell.
He would see the necessity of it and even possibly, thank Jack for it, but it would still have to
hurt like very hell.

I think Heath acted this out in the phone booth.

[Rosewood]

But if I were Ennis, this would have to hurt like hell.
He would see the necessity of it and even possibly, thank Jack for it, but it would still have to
hurt like very hell.

I think Heath acted this out in the phone booth.

The thing in the phone booth that breaks my heart EVERY damn time is Ennis
saying, "We herded sheep there one summer." The superb minimalization that
has to tear him apart. All of their life together reduced to that one sentence.

Yeah, HL gave us that.

[CANSTANDIT]

Yep. 

Another thing you point out so eloquently, Rose, is the 'minimalization'-the next line is' he could hardly speak.' What he does not say says it all, no?

[Rosewood]

This is why when Ennis says, "Jack, I swear..."
He hardly has to say anything else.
There just isn't any need.
It's all there: eloquent silence.

You know, I haven't seen the film in a while. Just haven't
had the heart for it.

By the way Jo, I'm going for my final chemo treatment this coming
Wednesday. Time flies when you're having...NOT!!!
Then it's herceptin once a month for a year and I'm done.
No way I'm doing this again.
I know, I know, never say never.
But, between you and me, I'm just too damn old to bother.
Whatever happens next, happens.
Life. Who can figure it?

[CANSTANDIT]

OH, wow...I am very happy to hear you are seeing light at the end of the tunnel..I do know how draining it is; and darn it, Yvette, it takes you away from us too much. We need you here, to get us out of the muck once in awhile. 

I can't see the film, either...I've been caught off guard, not seeing it for a while. It's pretty painful, when you've not seen it in a while..no amount of objective discussion takes that away, which is why Ive avoided it for at least a year now.

[newfan]

My fellow obsessed friends
I can't believe I've not logged on in 2 weeks and am catching up with the wonderful posts. What wonderful insight you all provide when we rehash this movie ad nauseum. Yes, I never realized it, but "we hearded sheep that summer"...what an unbelievable understatement. That summer defined both of their lives for the next 20 years. Heath delivered beautifully. I dont' believe that Jack meant to hurt Ennis in any way with his lack of planning in regards to his wishes. I am 38 and I never even talk to my wife about my expectations post mortem. I'm surprised Jack would...and certainly the relationship he had with Ennis wasn't the kind that they anything more than their meetings together.I think that Jack, to the end obeyed the rules of engagement. Ennis' reaction to the ash request from Lureen is simply shock initially but I think shock would give way to love, since BBM is the birthplace of their love, and it's a testament to it and to Ennis. So I think Ennis would feel nothing but agonizing loss and validation of his love for Jack.
In response to the intial response by Ennis to Alma, I think it's a part of Ennis to put everyone at arm's length when they seek his love...a reflex...he puts his "career" as pathetic as it may be, before love to protect himself from intimacy..in the motel with Jack;"making a living's all I have time for". I agree, that although that was the "old Ennis" reaction, he immediately realized that this way of distancing his loved ones was what kept him from Jack and he didn't want that to happen with his girls.
I find it interesting that you don't watch the video so much anymore...for me I still watch it just to gain insight on the personalities of the two, and to admire the acting on both HL and JG's parts. I am still amazed that 4 months later I am still profoundly moved by the raw emotion and power of this movie. Thank you all for continually sharing your thoughts on this forum.