Is society really as accepting as it claims?

[lowcountrygirl]

It was a fairly classic Jake dodge!

And he dodges a lot more than most people realise - the man is a master at it! 

I agree! It's a skill of his that I greatly admire!!

[lowcountrygirl]

We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!

[Osprey]

Ok, I guess that I had better jump in on this one.   I think that I can maybe shed a little light.

Marty and I, the man who has been the center of my universe for the last 14 years, live openly as a gay couple in a small Mormon town in north eastern Utah.  Or, as we affectionately call it, Outer Mormonia.  We are deeply involved in the community and are among its most successful businessmen.  In all of those fourteen years we have never had one seconds problem in any way shape nor form.  We are utterly accepted.  I am sure that a lot of that has to do with the fact that we have earned the respect of our community by refusing to allow our orientation to be an issue.  We both come from old Main Line Mormon families that go back to the founding of this valley in 1872.  My great great grandfather was sherriff here from 1880-1884 and was the only man to ever arrest Butch Cassidy.  He was drunk and my great great grandfather arrested him for vagrancy.  Marty's blood line goes back as far as mine.  His great great grandfather was a Mormon Polygamist of some renown. 

Neither of us are LDS of course, as that is not something we feel a need for.  We are Christian and attend a small Episcopal Church when we feel like it.  There also, we are made to feel utterly welcome. 

I think that our example goes to show it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.

[Lola]

I think that our example goes to show it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.

Very well said sweetie!! 

[lowcountrygirl]

But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

[cabin]

We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!

lowcoutnrygirl:

I don't know where you live or where you've been hiding, that you haven't met us.

Long term gay relationships (28 years)  have been around much long than your and my ages combined, honey.   

And as for jake being gay or not, or accepting it or not,   just mind your own business and do something other than debate someone's sexuality.  Let him be, for gods sakes.

[cabin]

But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

Yes, dear.  But they have the opportunity and the choice.   I did.

[Lola]

Gerry (Cabin) I know how happy you are.  I know there are many, many people on this board living in long term happy gay relationships.  I know, I have spoke to them.  And you are a perfect example.

And I know many in real life (not that this is not real life, lol) 

I think Marty said it best:

..it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.

Also as you said, long term gay relationships have been around forever.  Raymond Burr comes to mind:

Raymond Burr lived with his partner, and long-time companion, former actor Robert Benevides, for 35 years until Burr's death. At the time of Burr's death, Sonoma County residents were well acquainted with Burr and Benevides, who together owned and operated their vineyard in the Dry Creek Valley, and regarded them as any other married couple.

[lowcountrygirl]

We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!

Long term gay relationships (28 years)  have been around much long than your and my ages combined, honey.   

Of course they have! I think you misunderstood what I said.

What I said was that I doubted there were couples in America, who had never in all of that time had any kind of negative reaction from society.

[Lyle (Mooska)]

We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

Depends on what you mean by not bothering them.  If I've had a hard day and come back and turn on the tv and I see stories about people arguing wether or not I have the right to marry, of Isaiah Washington using slurs or of gay rights measures defeated in elections, or expressions of homophobia etc. -- that is part of society and it is bothersome.  It makes people always have to live with burdens not of their own choosing and that is society bothering us.

Long term gay relationships (28 years)  have been around much long than your and my ages combined, honey.

I don't think lowcountrygirl was disputing long term relationships, just that she had a question of the validity of Lola's statement that in all that time they'd been living in harmony with no societal effects.  J&E were together 20 years with many societal effects.  Again, Lola has said it can depend on where you live and your own situation.  Example:  I was reading a book about gay and lesbian soldiers in WWII.  Some actually were open about it and the rest of the people around them were not terribly bothered by it and they led relatively nice lives in the military context.  Whereas if those same people had been in another place they might have been harrassed, discharged, put in prison, bashed, raped, a victim of witch hunts, etc.  These people's lives were basically influenced by the tolerance of the other people around them.

And as for jake being gay or not, or accepting it or not,   just mind your own business and do something other than debate someone's sexuality.  Let him be, for gods sakes.

Hi, Cabin!  MEOW!!!  Hey, Ted Casablanca makes a living off this!

[P.S.:  If anyone's interested that book I was reading is called Coming Out Under Fire by Alan Berube.]

[lowcountrygirl]

Gerry (Cabin) I know how happy you are.  I know there are many, many people on this board living in long term happy gay relationships.  I know, I have spoke to them.  And you are a perfect example.

And I know many in real life (not that this is not real life, lol) 

I think Marty said it best:

..it is not who you are that is as important as how you live your life.  Your values, your standards, your contributions that make the biggest difference in how you are regarded in your community.

Also as you said, long term gay relationships have been around forever.  Raymond Burr comes to mind:

Raymond Burr lived with his partner, and long-time companion, former actor Robert Benevides, for 35 years until Burr's death. At the time of Burr's death, Sonoma County residents were well acquainted with Burr and Benevides, who together owned and operated their vineyard in the Dry Creek Valley, and regarded them as any other married couple.

That was not what I was talking about at all. Indeed, the topic of this thread is whether or not society is as aceepting as it sometimes claims.

Not whether or not gay people have long-term relationships, because of course they do!

Raymond Burr is also an example of society not being as open ... his sexuality was an open secret. He didn't take publicity pics holding his partner's hand. That is what we were discussing on this thread.

[Kelpersmek]

Once again Shelly, *great* thread topic!

Things I wanted to pick up on from the latest interesting thoughts:

Well we know religious people can be some of the biggest hypocrites around.  I read a article the other day saying Brokeback Mountain was banned from being shown in Utah and had been rated O, which apparently meant Morally Offensive.  Now aren't Mormon's religious?

While I wholeheartedly agree that some religious people are exceptionally hypocritical, I don't think that your example qualifies.  I have never read the Book of Mormon, but unless it has specific passages which negate the scripture laid out in Leviticus, then it is in keeping with their faith to brand BBM as "Morally Offensive".  The Bible states that for a man to lie with another man as with a woman is an abomination in the eyes of God, and further advises that 'their blood shall be upon their own heads'.  So to me what the Mormons of Utah did was not hypocritical, but instead being true to their beliefs.  If any Mormons or scholars here have a better insight into the Mormon faith, please correct me on that.

We both come from old Main Line Mormon families that go back to the founding of this valley in 1872.  My great great grandfather was sherriff here from 1880-1884 and was the only man to ever arrest Butch Cassidy.  He was drunk and my great great grandfather arrested him for vagrancy.  Marty's blood line goes back as far as mine.

I find that fascinating, and I think it brings in another aspect of the "Homophobia is strongly geographical" .  Different people also find that they don't experience homophobia because of their families and ties to a community.  I think it's about breaking down the homophobic climate by associating with gay people in a positive way.  That sounds like some kind of Oprah feel-good-crud to me, but what I mean is it's easy to hate an idea or an imaginary stereotype, and much harder to keep up an irrational hate for people you can't actually find any fault with.  It's like the previous story of Lola's mother who decided lesbians can't be all bad, because she liked Ellen, and she turned out to be gay. 

Certainly some people are more than capable of continuing to be narrow minded and invent reasons to hate people; but on the whole it seems a lot of folks are homophobic through ignorance and unfamiliarity.  If they actually meet a few openly gay people, that can change. 

So, to my mind it's a combination of a reasonable area and exposing people to the idea that gay people aren't green two-headed monsters.

I don't know where you live or where you've been hiding, that you haven't met us.

Hey, it's a big world out there!
I don't know if I've met you before either, so... howdy 

[lowcountrygirl]

I don't think lowcountrygirl was disputing long term relationships, just that she had a question of the validity of Lola's statement that in all that time they'd been living in harmony with no societal effects. 

That's exactly, right, Lyle! Thanks!!

And while I'm at it, thanks for all your posts on this topic.

Jeanine

[lowcountrygirl]

I don't know where you live or where you've been hiding, that you haven't met us.

Hey, it's a big world out there!
I don't know if I've met you before either, so... howdy 

LOL!

[Lyle (Mooska)]

I have never read the Book of Mormon, but unless it has specific passages which negate the scripture laid out in Leviticus, then it is in keeping with their faith to brand BBM as "Morally Offensive".  The Bible states that for a man to lie with another man as with a woman is an abomination in the eyes of God, and further advises that 'their blood shall be upon their own heads'.  So to me what the Mormons of Utah did was not hypocritical, but instead being true to their beliefs.

I absolutely don't want to get in a religious topic on this thread--someone could start a whole thread about that, but I recommend a book called "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality".

Emphasis on really.

Speaking of society not bothering us, it seems every time a religious person uses that biblical passage their intention is DESIGNED to bother us.