Is society really as accepting as it claims?

[lowcountrygirl]

But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

Just as Gerry, Osprey and Fritz's experiences, could not convince you of anything!    And like I said we have many many more like them on this board.  And I know many just like them.

What were they supposed to be convincing me of? That society fully accepts gay couples?

Is that what you believe, Lola?

[Lola]

No just that it is not that unusual and certainly not enough to be noteworthy!   Which was the question of the post is society really as accepting as it claims?  Alot of people would say yes to that.

[Kelpersmek]

I think Jake is a boob man! 

I  think what's being said makes all the difference in the world...

[Lyle (Mooska)]

Hmm we are going to have to agree to disagree there.  I still say it it was cut and dry. Of course I could poll every gay person I know! lol   Sorry my vote is still "not gay"  Just in the movie! 

No one has to vote one way or another, as I said before, I have no gaydar when it comes to Jake, but, Lola, anytime ANYONE says anything that could indicate Jake might be gay, you feel a need to refute it.  You quote  articles or post pictures that support your feelings.  You don't even have the tiniest wavering notion to your ideas--you simply discount it all.

It reminds me of the tour guide at the Liberace museum, a lady who proudly declared she was in her 80's.  After the tour was over she was taking questions and a woman commented that it was so nice that a gay man like Liberace became so successful at his craft and has an entire museum about his life.  The lady then said, "Oh, no, you are mistaken.  Liberace was not gay."  The entire tour erupted in laughter!  People see what they want to see.  That includes gay people, but some people are open to the possibilities of things that others report to us.

Just as Gerry, Osprey and Fritz's experiences, could not convince you of anything!    And like I said we have many many more like them on this board.  And I know many just like them.

And gnash was reading a story to me about two gay men who were beaten this week in Alberta.  Lola, you've stated it may depend on where you live, so where are you coming from on this?  Do you believe that society is totally accepting of gay couples or is there a scale to that?  Cause I read a gay national magazine frequently called Frontiers and there are weekly news items about much intolerance toward gay people in the world.  So, are you just saying it is where you live, or are there any gray areas in your ideas about this?  The U.S. will not tolerate homosexuals in the military (unless you don't tell!) which is "quite" intolerant.

[Lola]

Somehow I think it is her boobs he is checking out not the dress!   But hey we could start a rumour about him being a crossdresser!  Of course he brought that on himself after the SNL skit! lol

Lyle if it makes you feel better I do admit Liberance was gay!  I even suspect Richard Simmons may be also!     And is your point that society as a whole is totally unaccepting of gay couples?  If it is, then so be it.  It isn't mine and it isn't the view of many others.

I am entitled to my opinion, the fact that it is not the same as yours, doesn't make it less valid.

[merrobot]

What is still unclear...

What coming out or remaining closeted says about society's acceptance (as opposed to, say, personal acceptance)?

I think coming out or remaining closeted says as much about the person (personal acceptance) as it does about society.  I have a friend who is in his 40's, he came out when he was 10, told anyone who didn't like it to kiss his ass and he has never looked back since.

Hmmm... this is interesting.  I wonder what makes the difference between someone who has the confidence to come out, especially at such a young age, and someone who finds it more difficult.  Because I strongly suspect that people will be less likely to come out when they believe that they will get a negative reaction and that belief will be based on what they have experienced.  So actually, I think that society's acceptance can have a huge influence on people feeling confident about coming out.  However, I also think that people who have had a lot of experiences of being accepted and esteemed in childhood, are probably more likely to come out because they have experienced that acceptance and can therefore accept themselves and have a support network to offset any negative experiences of coming out.  It is very much a two-way street and there are huge interactions between societal pressures and personal acceptance of sexual orientation.

And for the record I do think many of the stars we have today, may have been bi-sexual, went with a few men here and there when they were younger.  And then met women, fell in love, had families and are perfectly content with their lives in the here and now.

So again, what they did when they were young, really doesn't interest me.  Heck I even know plenty of people in my real life who experimented when they were young.  Not me though..........not that there is anything wrong with that! lol

I don't quite follow your comment here - are you saying that celebrities who have "experimented" with same-sex relationships should be considered 'bisexuals' who have "got it out of their system" and should now be considered totally straight?  Because I wouldn't ever equate sexual experimentation with bisexuality, one is a behaviour the other is an identity.  I have heard the term "bicurious" bandied about and I suspect that it might be how people identify when they are in this experimentation stage but I see it as quite distinct from bisexuality. 

And as we are on the topic of societal acceptance - I think "bicuriousity" is much more acceptable than bisexuality because it is associated with experimentation and an expectation that once you've tried both sexes you can decide what your preference is (and hell mend you if you decide you very much like both, thanks very much!).  I also think it taps into two widely held beliefs that I don't agree with: "everybody is a bit bisexual" and "being bisexual is trendy".  While I do believe that sexual orientation is a continuum with a whole range of points at which people can identify, I don't think it is helpful to simply say then, "we're all a bit bi".  I also don't think it's helpful to make a sexual orientation into a fashion statement - I get really irritated by people who treat it as some sort of "wild thing" to get involved in - "oh yeah, I used to do coke but now I do chicks" 

And I hate to say it - but all these "happily married men" who had a few 'gay' flings in their youth?  There are a scary number of them presenting at clinics for men who have sex with men...

[Lola]

I think alot of things factor in as to when and if people come out.  But I think it has to come from within.  How many times have you heard people say I was so scared to tell "A" or to tell "B" and then when they did, neither "A" nor "B" really care.  That is internalized fear.

I guess my question is if a man is bi-sexual and say from 20 to 30  he is with men and women, lots of them.  And then at 30, that man meets a woman and marries and has kids and only has sex with and eyes for her for the next 25 years, is he still bi-sexual? 

I don't like labels for just that reason.  I have a friend, she was happily married for a long time, two kids, they drifted apart and got a divorce.  She was getting on with her life, had no real plans to date, was raising her kids.  And then she met a women, a wonderful women, they hit it off they became friends and then lovers.  They moved in together.

She would tell you she does not consider herself a lesbian, not at all.   So then what is she, is she bi-sexual, straight, but with a women. 

Or maybe just one person in love with another.

[merrobot]

I think alot of things factor in as to when and if people come out.  But I think it has to come from within.  How many times have you heard people say I was so scared to tell "A" or to tell "B" and then when they did, neither "A" nor "B" really care.  That is internalized fear.

I have heard that, I have experienced that but I have also know young gay men and lesbians who were told by their parents "If I find out you're queer, I'll fucking kill you" and a very good friend of mine at university was badly beaten by his brother when he first came out.  While I never felt that my physical safety was compromised by my sexuality, I did at times feel that it compromised my relationship with my mother and there was a real sense that she felt "let down" by the fact that I was in a relationship with a woman.  I was terrified of people at working finding out and when I later met another lesbian member of staff after I had left she told me that she had been outed at work and was looking for another job because she couldn't stand it.  Again, all very complex interactions between different aspects of individual's lives.

I guess my question is if a man is bi-sexual and say from 20 to 30  he is with men and women, lots of them.  And then at 30, that man meets a woman and marries and has kids and only has sex with and eyes for her for the next 25 years, is he still bi-sexual? 

I don't like labels for just that reason.  I have a friend, she was happily married for a long time, two kids, they drifted apart and got a divorce.  She was getting on with her life, had no real plans to date, was raising her kids.  And then she met a women, a wonderful women, they hit it off they became friends and then lovers.  They moved in together.

She would tell you she does not consider herself a lesbian, not at all.   So then what is she, is she bi-sexual, straight, but with a women. 

Or maybe just one person in love with another.

If a man has relationships with men and women and considers himself to be bisexual then I think that's what he is, if he marries and is monogamous and considers himself bisexual or considers himself straight then that is what he is.  Sexual identity, is what we make of our own experiences, feelings and beliefs - it is not for others to make that decision for us.  So while I would have an issue with my doctor or my mother or my colleagues saying that I'm straight when I that is not how I identify myself, if they were to say I was bi (because that is what I told them) then I wouldn't take issue with it.

I've already said that I don't believe that sexuality is a dichotomy but a continuum.  What I didn't say but also meant was that it is fluid - there is no reason why a person's identification cannot change over time as they develop as a person.  I think that is the real issue with labels - that they can only describe a snapshot in time, they are not enduring.  Indeed, while I think "I'm a person in love with another person" is a very touching sentiment, it flies in the face of having an identity and at this point in time, I think identity is something which is very important.

[Kelpersmek]

I think alot of things factor in as to when and if people come out.

Like, for example, you live in Alabama, and if you come out, you run a high risk of being beaten to death with clubs, and someone dragging your corpse into a tree, and hanging a sign saying "Fag" from it.  That would probably influence your decision.

But I think it has to come from within.

I think if instructions that tell you how to live your life come from without, that means you need to see someone about the little voices that tell you what to do.  lol. 

How many times have you heard people say I was so scared to tell "A" or to tell "B" and then when they did, neither "A" nor "B" really care.  That is internalized fear.

However, as with Ennis, that fear didn't manifest out of thin air.  How did it get to be an internalised fear? 
It is an absorbtion of societal values into your perception of the world.  If it turns out to be wrong, it is nonetheless not a spontaneous manifestation, but something gathered through the evidence and experiences you've had.

I guess my question is if a man is bi-sexual and say from 20 to 30  he is with men and women, lots of them.  And then at 30, that man meets a woman and marries and has kids and only has sex with and eyes for her for the next 25 years, is he still bi-sexual?

Yes.
Two reasons:
1) If you get married, are you now a monosexual?  You're neither straight nor gay, you are only ever sexually attracted to one partner.  Ever.  No.  Instead you remains straight or gay, but monogamous.  it doesn't change your sexuality.
2) Have you ever been in a relationship which was intense and passionate and all consuming love, and yet for just the briefest second or in the most innocent way found yourself looking at an actor, an advert, a magazine, anything and thinking "ooh, hot"?  I'm guessing if you have a pulse then yes, whether or not you are secure enough to admit that.  No one has eyes only for their partner, even if we are devoted to them.  As Lyle rightly said, humans consider sexuality all the time.  If the man continues to think "ooh hot" about other men as well as other women then yeah, he's bisexual.  Sexuality is not the same as sex.  Attraction is not sex.  Finding someone attractive doesn't mean you had sex with them, and similarly, not having sex with someone does not mean you are not attracted to them.

I don't like labels for just that reason.

We all love to think we are unique snowflakes.  We're not.  Labels are unpopular because they remind us that we're not the first people on the planet or the first people to feel/do/say/think this.   

I have a friend, she was happily married for a long time, two kids, they drifted apart and got a divorce.  She was getting on with her life, had no real plans to date, was raising her kids.  And then she met a women, a wonderful women, they hit it off they became friends and then lovers.  They moved in together.

She would tell you she does not consider herself a lesbian, not at all.

I don't think labels are about what you consider yourself, but about what society considers you.  Lesbian or bisexual, rejecting any label or seeking to create a unique one is simply fooling oneself*.  Society will apply a label regardless, because <drum roll> society is not as accepting as it claims.






*Footnote: I'm not comfortable with being called straight.  I myself am a Fabulousexual; I only have sex with fabulous people. 

[Lola]

LOL well I really enjoyed what you both have to say, I really did.  I learn something all the time on this board.

I think at the end of the day people can say who they are, how they define themselves.  But yes society will define them how they want to.  A woman may be 5 foot 4 and 200 pounds and consider herself "pleasantly plump" but society will see her as "fat" know what I mean?  What is she at the end of the day?  She is what she wants to be.

I can only say for my experience and that of my gay friends, in the city and place I live, society is as accepting as it seems.  I do not perform lip service when I talk about my gay friends. I love them, I care about them, I treasure them as friends.  My kids do the same with their gay friends, it is not an "act"

What is life like in Alabama, I have no clue.  How can a parent say "they will kill their child if he or she is gay"  I have no clue.

I can't explain how some people think.  Hate is hate, it is evil, and it is evil and wrong if it directed at gay people, or minorities, or someone who is a different religion, or someone who looks different, is disfigured or is overweight, someone who is handicapped or mentally challenged, the list is endless............human beings can be cruel to other human beings. 

[Lyle (Mooska)]

And is your point that society as a whole is totally unaccepting of gay couples?  If it is, then so be it.  It isn't mine and it isn't the view of many others.

I can only say for my experience and that of my gay friends, in the city and place I live, society is as accepting as it seems. 

No. 

But your posts have answered YES to the question this thread poses without taking a more world view into account, up until you've narrowed it down to your experience, your friends, city and place you live.  So, do you think your answer would be different outside of that narrower focus?

[Lola]

A society is a grouping of individuals, which is characterized by common interest and may have distinctive culture and institutions. In a society members can be from a different ethnic group. A "Society" may refer to a particular people, such as the Nuer, to a nation state, such as Switzerland, or to a broader cultural group, such as Western society. Society can also be explained as an organized group of people associated together for religious, benevolent, cultural, scientific, political, patriotic, or other purposes.


Do you want to start defining society Lyle?  You are not going to quit until I agree with you.  Well guess what it isn't happening.  You have my answer.   You had my answer pages ago.

Enjoy your Valentine's day! 

[Osprey]

I briefly posted yesterday about the fact that we live in a small Mormon town in Northeastern Utah and are utterly accepted in the community as a gay couple and interestingly enough, Salt Lake City has one of the most sophisticated gay communities in the nation.  They are involved in every aspect of Utah Society and manage very well even with the "Official Policy" of the LDS Church being what it is. 

I think that you will find that there is a huge disconnect between the elderly and younger leaders of many of the religions today.  These elderly leaders, are in many respects stuck in the horse and buggy era in regards to the increased knowledge regarding things like homosexuality.  They live in many cases in utter isolation from the real world.  The younger leaders, say on the parish level, are a whole different breed and they are not only aware of the increased knowledge regarding issues like homosexuality, they accept it and apply it to their roles as leaders in their respective religious communities.  In Salt Lake City, there are several gay Mormon Wards, the Mormon equivalent of a Parish and the leaders of the Church are aware of their existence and they just sort of seem to turn their heads regarding their existence.  Same goes for the Catholic Church.  In Salt Lake City there are also support groups for Gay Mormon Fathers, Gay Mormon Mothers, staffed by Mormons for Mormon members of the GLTG community.

The governing body of the Mormon Church is the Council of the Twelve Apostles, whom we refer to as the Council of the Twelve Fossils.   No one expects them to make official the changes that are already taking place.  That will come with the next generation.  It should be of no great surprise therefore, that we live openly as a gay couple in a Mormon community and have the total support of the younger Mormon leaders, with whom we deal with on a daily basis on behalf of the community as a whole.

I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.  But if you act like you know what the hell you are doing, people will treat you like you do.  That has been our experience anyway.

[Lola]

It should be of no great surprise therefore, that we live openly as a gay couple in a Mormon community and have the total support of the younger Mormon leaders, with whom we deal with on a daily basis on behalf of the community as a whole.

I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.  But if you act like you know what the hell you are doing, people will treat you like you do.  That has been our experience anyway.

Thanks again Rance, I hope everyone reads that and really lets it soak in this time!

[shelber]

*Footnote: I'm not comfortable with being called straight.  I myself am a Fabulousexual; I only have sex with fabulous people. 

oh wow i thought i was the only one!!!