SPOILER FREE--Cultural Impact of the film/book

[aceygirl]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/10/opinion/10savage.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Dan Savage's perspective on gay and straight actors...excellent commentary. I had read in the Voice about the controversy over a Christian missionary flick that cast a gay "activist" to play a non-gay part.  My gawd, the religious right can't even stand to let gay actors PLAY A ROLE without a fuss!  On the other hand, I was almost heartwarmed by the idea that there were reasonable Christians out there who simply wanted the best person for the role.

[HerrKaiser]

Hi TexRob,
Interested...what do you mean by "war" and the grenades and a-bomb analogies? thanks!

thanks,

[TexRob]

Hi  HerrKaiser --

Sorry the analogy isn't clear to you. 

Sactopete was wanting to know the impact the movie was having on gays in particular. Were we, he asked, moving past the "Amos & Andy" (his words) phase of our characterization by mainstream media.

By "we," I was referring to the gay community.

The "savage enemy" to which I refer is the religio-fascists who control the public discourse in this country:  Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and their henchmen in the government and mass media, such as Cal Thomas and Bill O'Reilly.

My analogy was meant to illustrate my view of the impact the movie has had on the framing of gay issues.  Step'nfetchit characterizations like on Will & Grace, up to now, have done  little more to help gays & lesbians than lobbing grenades did to affect the outcome of World War II. 

Culturally, then, the sudden bursting on the scene of Brokeback Mountain has changed the culture war as dramatically as the Bomb changed the course of the Second World War.

I hope the analogy is clearer now.

[mary]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/10/opinion/10savage.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Dan Savage's perspective on gay and straight actors...excellent commentary.

What I can't understand is how Dan Savage can not  have seen BBM yet.  I loved him when I lived in Seattle, don't hear much from him more recently.  DO want to read his most recent book though
 The Commitment : Love, Sex, Marriage, and My Family

[HerrKaiser]

Hi  HerrKaiser --

Sorry the analogy isn't clear to you. 

Sactopete was wanting to know the impact the movie was having on gays in particular. Were we, he asked, moving past the "Amos & Andy" (his words) phase of our characterization by mainstream media.

By "we," I was referring to the gay community.

The "savage enemy" to which I refer is the religio-fascists who control the public discourse in this country:  Fred Phelps, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and their henchmen in the government and mass media, such as Cal Thomas and Bill O'Reilly.

My analogy was meant to illustrate my view of the impact the movie has had on the framing of gay issues.  Step'nfetchit characterizations like on Will & Grace, up to now, have done  little more to help gays & lesbians than lobbing grenades did to affect the outcome of World War II. 

Culturally, then, the sudden bursting on the scene of Brokeback Mountain has changed the culture war as dramatically as the Bomb changed the course of the Second World War.

I hope the analogy is clearer now.

Hi TexRob!

thanks, I understand what you are saying and tend to agree. In fact, I'd label the so-called "grenades" with something more in terms of giving arms to the "enemy". Step'nfetchit characterisations not only have not helped, in my opinion, they have tended to support the stereotypes. Whether people want to believe it or not, stereotypes are such because they are either true or there is such a large media endorsement of the behavior, it becomes true in peoples' minds. Hollywood has heralded queens in movies and TV. Hence, the stereotype continues to get more firmly established.

That's why the "savage enemy" actually, to me, is not the main problem for two reasons. One, they really do not control the discourse in this country. the NYTImes, LA Times, ABC, NBC, CBS and the massive Hollywood and music business are FAR more able to dictate and control thinking/analysis/discourse. O'Reilly has big ratings on cable, but the audiences are more massive elsewhere. Secondly, they attack gays not on a sterertyping basis (as Oprah did!), rather a moral ground, which studies have shown most people do not accept.

The "bomb" effect of BBM is real in that it has thrust the notion forward that the stereotypes are NOT true. That's why, as has been noted elsewhere, if the film had used steretypes as in Will and Grace, Bird Cage, etc etc, it would have been a fizzled firecracker.

Thanks again for explaining and for listening! 

[ToolPackinMama]

Hi. This is unrelated to previous posts.

My one prayer is that this film might convince people that laws prohibiting Gay marriage are heartless and morally wrong.

[HerrKaiser]

Hi. This is unrelated to previous posts.

My one prayer is that this film might convince people that laws prohibiting Gay marriage are heartless and morally wrong.

My sense is that peoples' attitudes on gay marriage will fall fairly far down the list of outcomes to this fine film. There are so many grass roots issues that have been in play for decades that will likely remain at the forefront before the whole marriage issue. I think most people see gay marriage as a politial debate first, and moral issue second. And the politics of it have only scratched the surface.

[SquallCloud]

Yah I've been a Dan Savage fan for years. Teh only reason to pick up the Philadelphia Weekly is for his column and thepolitical cartoons in the back. *sigh* I was dissapointed he hadn't seen the flick yet but I think he's just being contrary. He was basically like "I know it's like some gay holy day" but he hasn't seen it he's waiting til March. Why Dan? Whyyyy? Don't you want to see all the pretty sex and fights between the pretty pretty boys?

[TexRob]

...
The "bomb" effect of BBM is real in that it has thrust the notion forward that the stereotypes are NOT true. That's why, as has been noted elsewhere, if the film had used steretypes as in Will and Grace, Bird Cage, etc etc, it would have been a fizzled firecracker.
...

Hi HerrKaiser --

You have an interesting point: this "savage enemy" may indeed not be as dangerous as it seems to me. But I'm as fearful as Ennis about what might come about sometimes.

As for the stereotypes that were avoided -- well, that's part of the brilliance of the movie, isn't it?  There were a hundred places where this production could have gone so horribly wrong.  But for the slightest misstep, this film would indeed have turned into a "fizzled firecracker."   

It's a credit to the genius of everyone involved in this project that the minefield waiting for it was so deftly navigated. I honestly wonder who but Ang Lee, Heath, Jake, et al., could have pulled it off.

[Poohbunn]

The impact of BBM on gay men is of greater interest to me.  Certainly there will be some impact in the larger society.  The real difference, if any, will be on young men facing choices about marriage, about relationships, etc.  The real impact will be on bisexuals throughout our society.

Personally, I hope there is a strong impact on the Fundamentalist religious groups out there (but they probably won't see it).  Word of mouth may help there.  This movie doesn't stereotype the men as feminine, nor does it take the subject lightly.  It's not a comedy, but a love story.  Nothing I have seen has come close to this.   I pray every day that more people will see it so more hearts will change.

[Chris]

The impact of BBM on gay men is of greater interest to me.  Certainly there will be some impact in the larger society.  The real difference, if any, will be on young men facing choices about marriage, about relationships, etc.  The real impact will be on bisexuals throughout our society.

Personally, I hope there is a strong impact on the Fundamentalist religious groups out there (but they probably won't see it).  Word of mouth may help there.  This movie doesn't stereotype the men as feminine, nor does it take the subject lightly.  It's not a comedy, but a love story.  Nothing I have seen has come close to this.   I pray every day that more people will see it so more hearts will change.

Since the film came out there has been active discussion about bulling worldwide, here is one result.

The Montana Board of Public Education decided recently that all school districts must adopt policies against bullying will take effect with the next school year.   http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/03/031206montBully.htm

Here's hoping!

[Rosewood]

Something totally different.
Not even sure if this is the right place for this, but what the heck.
Forgive me if I get it wrong, but I didn't think this really belonged in Books, although it has something to do with books to film...oh well, here goes.
And if someone else has already posted this, then ignore me.

Over on author Peter Lefcourt's website, he's posted a good and well deserved 'thank you' to the creators of BROKEBACK the film, understandably implying that BBM's success will make it a bit easier for all manner of 'gay, straight or zigzag' films to find an audience in future.

He also mentions the cast and how the idea of a straight actor playing a gay character in the past might have seemed career ending. Now, of course, he makes clear, scripts are piliing up on Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal's agents' desks.

Of course, Lefcourt has a dog in the hunt.
His gay love story,THE DREYFUS AFFAIR, has been optioned for the fifth time and looks like, due specifically to BROKEBACK, it has a good chance to go forward to film. (He's writing the script even as we speak.)

But I like the idea that he has given credit where true credit is due. BROKEBACK should, indeed, open the door to many terrific projects that have probably been languishing for years.
All it takes is that one successful, mainstream first step.