Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[Cambridge]

Can I put us back on track by asking how come the objects of our attention are now LESS GAY?

(The numbers for "Were They Gay"?  "Yes" above seem to be falling.)

Does this reflect the broader readership of these forums? Shifting views based on what's been read here? Re-assessments derived from seeing the movie again? Or re-reading (or reading) the original screenplay or short story?

I'm having second thoughts: I said "yes" before but now I'm thinking Jack's on the team but Ennis is still on waivers. 

[Lola]

I am wavering.

And someone on here (can't rember who) made an excellent point.

I felt if Ennis loved Jack and only Jack, and was never with another man before Jack and never with another man after Jack, how could we say for sure he was gay?

But someone pointed out, that even if Jack was never with anyone else again, that wouldn't mean he wasn't gay, he could still be gay in his heart and soul.

But I also believe Ennis loved Alma, just not as much as he loved Jack, he loved JACK and Jack happend to be a man.

So it brings me back to the thought that if he is not a straight man in love with a man (is there such a thing) then he was bi-sexual.

Same goes for Jack, I think he also liked women, but liked men (one man in particular) better, so again I would take him to be bi-sexual.

And I also keep going back to the point that it really doesn't matter, and why do we feel the need to label them at all?

They were two human beings who met up one summer in their youth and fell in love and that love endured over a 20 year period.

It was a love that for whatever reason (at that time) was not meant to be.  Hollywood have been making loves stories like that since the beginning of time.

Now instead of Jack and Rose..............we had Jack and Ennis!!   

Why try and figure it out, why not just sit back and soak it in and enjoy it!

[helen_uk]

If the society in which they had lived wasn't as it was then I don't think either of them would have even looked at a woman.  They only reason they went in that direction is because society dictated that they do.  Take away societies restraints and the two of them would have no thoughts for anyone else whatsoever.

If a woman only has one male partner in her life, and sticks with him for 20 years we don't try and say she's bisexual just because there was only one man in her life.  And if society dictated that she partner a woman and she did so because it was expected of her, she wouldn't be bisexual either.

[aceygirl]

Can I put us back on track by asking how come the objects of our attention are now LESS GAY?

(The numbers for "Were They Gay"?  "Yes" above seem to be falling.)

Does this reflect the broader readership of these forums? Shifting views based on what's been read here? Re-assessments derived from seeing the movie again? Or re-reading (or reading) the original screenplay or short story?

I'm having second thoughts: I said "yes" before but now I'm thinking Jack's on the team but Ennis is still on waivers. 

I agree. IMHO, Ennis is somewhat of a switch-hitter--even if he does favor one side more than the other!

My whole take on "were they gay" is that there's no clear consensus on just what "gay" is. I happen to think there is such a thing as bisexuality, in that Ennis, and to a lesser extent Jack, could very well have enjoyed sex with women. Could even have formed affectionate bonds with those women. For many, these facts don't mean they were bi, but gay. But for some of us, it means there could very well have been at least some bi tendencies.  There are married men today who don't call themselves bi when they go cruising for male sex, who are surely completely repressed and not out to themselves. But there are plenty of others who DO call themselves bi and enjoy and love their wives--but still do crave male sex as well.  And other infinite variations on the theme, I'm certain.

As I stated--perhaps somewhat defensively--those of us who believe Ennis in particular might not have been "exclusively gay" does not mean we are automatically ignorant, uneducated and blindly agenda-influenced types. It's wide open to interpretation and to each of our personal definitions of what "gay" is. Remember--Ennis is a fictional character!

I really enjoy and respect the posts by Vertimus, Lola, Cara, et al. and think you all have valid points. Is it safe to say that we all agree that Ennis and Jack were meant to be together, were soulmates, and were victims of prejudice and homophobia because they happened to be of the same gender? Whether "exclusively but repressed" gay, "somewhat gay," "bisexual leaning toward gay/visa versa" " gay but not gay-lifestyle" --whatever floats yer boat!!

 

[memememe]

Okay. We're falling into the trap of labelling everything. It's not an issue of being gay or not gay. It's about two people falling in love and they just happen to be two men.

The movie was meant to make people fall out of this trap.

As Jake said on Oprah, when people said that Jack was the bottom, but Jack's really the top because he does the chasing...what are you talking about? Stop trying to categorize it.

 

[Lola]

If the society in which they had lived wasn't as it was then I don't think either of them would have even looked at a woman.  They only reason they went in that direction is because society dictated that they do.  Take away societies restraints and the two of them would have no thoughts for anyone else whatsoever.

I am not sure that would have been true in the case of Ennis, I think if he had met Jack first, yea he may have ran with it, but if he had never met Jack and met Alma first, I think he would have married and stayed married.

JACK was the big changing factor for him, IMO.



HEY Aceygirl beautifully said!!   

[cyoung]

I really enjoy and respect the posts by Vertimus, Lola, Cara, et al. and think you all have valid points. Is it safe to say that we all agree that Ennis and Jack were meant to be together, were soulmates, and were victims of prejudice and homophobia because they happened to be of the same gender? Whether "exclusively but repressed" gay, "somewhat gay," "bisexual leaning toward gay/visa versa" " gay but not gay-lifestyle" --whatever floats yer boat!!
 

I can agree with that, yes, although the whole "soulmate" thing gives me pause, mostly because I'm not sure I believe in the concept. But I won't get into that discussion here.     With the rest I can definitely agree!

Cara

[Zudos]

Lola, it may have been my post that you read before

Quote: So with Jack and Ennis - to me, it would appear that Jack really struggled with his sexuality (knowing really that he was gay), and even went to Mexico to get some of what he was only getting from Ennis once or twice a year... Whereas Ennis did not pursue other relationships with men, and had only this amazing connection with Jack... Towards the beginning of the film, Jack commented on Ennis suddenly becoming conversational, and Ennis said that was the most he had said all year - He was developing a connection and bond with Jack, and bearing in mind that he had seen his fiancee that year, the suggestion is that the bond between Ennis and Jack was already strong enough for Ennis to open up more to his 'friend' than to his fiancee... Ennis never replicated that bond with anyone, evidenced by the fact that he could not stop himself snogging the face off Jack when they met again after 4 years apart, even though his wife was only feet away in the apartment...

So in my mind it was Jack, that connected with Ennis in a way that no other had - and it could be soulmates - and you know when you meet a soul mate...   

[Lola]

HEY sweetie maybe it was you!

Yes when cupids arrow strikes, we don't stand a chance 

He had one great love Jack, and even though it didn't last (Jack died) and it wasn't all they had hoped it could be (too much time apart)  it is alot more than alot of people get. 

to quote the Notebook:

Noah: I am nothing special; just a common man with common thoughts, and I've led a common life. There are no monuments dedicated to me and my name will soon be forgotten. But in one respect I have succeeded as gloriously as anyone who's ever lived: I've loved another with all my heart and soul; and to me, this has always been enough.

[Zudos]

I mean its like Charles and Camilla - They were obviously meant to be together and had to go through other people to find that out... Shame that it caused a train wreck on the way... 

But lets not get too much into why they are together... as that is an enigma that NO ONE can answer...!

[DaveinPhilly]

I mean its like Charles and Camilla - They were obviously meant to be together and had to go through other people to find that out... Shame that it caused a train wreck on the way... 

But lets not get too much into why they are together... as that is an enigma that NO ONE can answer...!

Egad what a comparison!

[Uclapeterg]

I mean its like Charles and Camilla - They were obviously meant to be together and had to go through other people to find that out... Shame that it caused a train wreck on the way... 

But lets not get too much into why they are together... as that is an enigma that NO ONE can answer...!

 

[vertimus]

I'm with Helen. Ennis was not a switch-hitter in any appreciable sense; he was listless in his attitude--indifferent even--to the potentially luscious, young, nubile Cassie. And he walked away from her without an apparent second thought. He knew it had no future in his heart. Nor was it a film about two souls in love. It was a film about two homosexuals in love. It saddens me that some people feel they [still] have to make apologies for that.

[Cambridge]

Yeww...Just the thought of the Cornwalls makes me queasy. Let's not go there.

But (and here I go...) who knows who they are and what they want at 19 or 20?

Not Chuck, certainly: he couldn't get off his ass and make a decision on a bride, and Dad's bullying is said to have had something to do with it. Hmmm...because he knew Camilla back then. Before she converted to Catholicism to marry her (Parker-Bowles) husband. Making her less eligible - not to mention that she's now a divorcee - to ascend to the throne alongside her husband as Q of E.

And Di? Jeez, she was never the sharpest knife in the drawer but at 19 I suspect she was more comfortable with "Curious George" than the classics. And she was a virgin. Didn't have a clue even though she thought she knew what she wanted. She too had trouble with the in-laws.
And they grew up and didn't live happily ever after. Di came to a tragic (if not entirely unforeseeable) end. After a miserable marriage, despite the fact that she loved her children, if not her husband.

Making me agree with those of you who say it doesn't matter - hell, it's happening all over, even to royalty - or that we shouldn't need labels.  But the poll's the poll, the numbers are changing, and it was getting a bit warm in here this afternoon, so I'm happy to hear your thoughts. And Zudos makes an apt comparison: few of us seem to know a good thing when we see it and/or a trainwreck headed our way at a young age. Wisdom, like they say, is born of pain. And time.

But as for me: Jack, gay for sure, despite the wife and the son and the Mexican rent boys and maybe Randall the ranch foreman. He carried a torch for Ennis for twenty long years and while he might have strayed physically with other men, his heart was in the hills with Ennis. Which love really transcends gender in my mind. And which he was not ashamed of. No wonder: a walk in the woods with Ennis/Heath was nothing to sneeze at: the memories alone would carry me through a lot of long lonely nights: I'd keep coming back, even if I needed more.

But Ennis, despite marrying Alma and siring two girls (who it's clear he loves), had only one grand passion in his life and it wasn't his wife. So while it was a man he loved, exclusively - and whose memory he'll cherish until he dies - his inability to decouple his fears from his needs made his desire a tragedy. To the extent that any labels can be considered, I'm thinking of him now as neither straight nor gay, apart from being, like so many of us, gay for Jake. Er, Jack.     

[Lola]

he was listless in his attitude--indifferent even--to the potentially luscious, young, nubile Cassie. And he walked away from her without an apparent second thought. He knew it had no future in his heart.

He walked away from her because he didn't love her, it is easy to walk away when you aren't in love.

And I love the Camila and Charles comparison, they should have been together, but because of his Mother and the monarchy and a million other reasons they weren't and they hurt people, but they were the  lucky ones, they are together now.