Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[cyoung]

And, along with being reasonable, intelligent and non-homophobic, they are also NOT necessarily manipulated by society nor uneducated.

Not sure I get the point of this.

My guess is that she was responding to Vertimus's comments:
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Ironwood, I agree, though I respect those who simply can't see that this is a film about two homosexual men--their 'lack of insight' is also indicative of the manner in which our culture has manipulated and programmed people. And failed to educate them as it has failed to educate itself.
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It feels insulting to me.

Cara

[Lola]

me too   

[vertimus]

I think that's in response to an earlier comment of mine.

The truth is that all media is programming of some kind, whether is's film or television or music---some message is being transmitted and we're all susceptible to it as long as we take it in.

As a homosexual man, I've certainly been 'manipulated' by what might be called 'heterosexual propanda' my entire life, and have learned to be objective and conscientious whenever I watch, listen to, or read anything about everything and anything.

The New York Times is manipulative, so is the Miami Herald, Time magazine, the Fox News Channel, CNN, 60 Minutes, American Idol, the music of Bob Dylan, Igg Pop, Joni Mitchell, Snoop Dog, and Mariah Carey, even Marvel super hero comics.

It's not as if I'm saying heterosexual America in particular are cattle who are easily led. 

[Lola]

I don't believe that, any more than I believe there is a homosexual agenda!  And if there is a hetrosexual and homosexual agenda, I make up my own mind about things, I don't need the media to tell me what is right and wrong.

Check out this article:

http://www.earnedmedia.org/sbm1212.htm

They are saying the exact same thing as you, only in reverse! 

[vertimus]

Lolas, you're assuming that I mean such 'propoganda' is necessailry conscious and willful.

It's not, it's often a byproduct, a subtext. You don't think there's a propoganda element to a show like '24'?  Or 'The X-Files'? Or even 'American Idol'? Or 'Natural Born Killers'?

Every piece of media is far more than the sum of its parts and sends out messages of all kinds. That's the nature of the beast.

So when I use a term like 'heterosexual propoganda,' I don't mean intentional, willful, purpose-driven ideological cant, necessarily.

And, speaking as a homosexual, if you don't think there is a 'gay agenda' in some camps, in you're wrong.

[Lola]

That is what I am saying IF there is a hetrosexual agenda, then there is an homosexual agenda as well.  I was just discussing this in another post.  Do people want Brokeback to win because it is the best movie (I think it is) or because it makes a statement politically (as some have implied)

IF they want it to win for political reasons, then that is an agenda!     And if people want it to lose for political reason, that is also an agenda.

[vertimus]

Lola, what is your logic for claiming a statement like "if there is a heterosexual agenda, then there is a homosexual agenda as well?"

That sense does that make? And why are you drawing all this down to just BBM and awards its winning?

I'm referring to the social history of the 19th and 20th centuries, not just to the case of this film.

And as I said, there certainly are ALL kinds of political and social agendas which are supported and propagated by conservatives and liberals and libertarians as well as heterosexuals, bisexuals, and homosexuals.

I'm not sure where you live, but if you were to live in NYC for very long, you'd learn that practically everyone has an agenda of some kind.

Especially in the East Village. Especially under the roofs of the Village Voice and the New York times and Columbia University.

[Lola]

You just proved the point I was trying to make, the media comes at us from all angles, TV, radio, movies, magazines, it is up to us to decide what to believe.

It is not just hetrosexual propaganda, see your quotes above:

Ironwood, I agree, though I respect those who simply can't see that this is a film about two homosexual men--their 'lack of insight' is also indicative of the manner in which our culture has manipulated and programmed people. And failed to educate them as it has failed to educate itself.

[vertimus]

Loa, when I was growing up, there was nothing presented on any screen at any time except white men and women in heterosexual situations--and guess what? Not a lot has changed, not terribly.

That's what I was referring to by 'heterosexual propoganda.' It means the makers of those media items more or less basically assume, 'Hey! Everyone's like us!' It doesn't mean they did it willfully or intended it harmfully, but they were controlling the media, and their ideas were naive at best.

It isn't the case today, and it wasn't truly the case then either--that 'Hey! Everyone's like us!" Ask all the black men and women who never saw themselves represented anywhere at any time exept as maids and porters.

[Lola]

Well there was Some Like it Hot! lol

But yea I know what you mean, I just didn't like the implication that we have been so brainwashed by the media that we can't decide some things for ourselves (like whether Ennis and Jake were gay)   

[ingmarnicebbmt]

Stop it, please!

[cyoung]

And, speaking as a homosexual, if you don't think there is a 'gay agenda' in some camps, in you're wrong.

What exactly IS this "gay agenda"? I'm still trying to figure it out. People say this, usually right-wingers, but they never really go into detail about what it means.

Cara

[vertimus]

Cara, there are probably as many 'gay agendas' are as there are heterosexual agendas.

What it means is a group bands together to specifically affect social change in some manner. They change they want to affect is their 'agenda.'

Some such groups are NAMBLA, the Log Cabin Republicans (a homosexual group), NOW, the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, ACT-UP, The Anti-Defamation League, MoveOn.org., The Moral Majority, and a host of many thousands of others, including religious groups of all kinds.

For example, in the 70s, there was an fairly vehement anti-homosexual group fronted by singer Anita Bryant; in the early 90s there was a group of 'hardline gay men' in NYC who went around attempting to publically 'out' as many celebrities as they could, celebrities they believed to be 'gay' and failing in their social duty to proclaim themselves.

ALL of the groups I've listed have some kind of agenda, that's why they've formed.

I'm not putting words in their mouths.

[jim ...]

hi everyone .... in reading the recent posts in this thread, it seems as though we've gone a bit off topic.  This thread is for discussion on if Jack and Ennis are gay.  If someone would like to start a new topic about the gay agenda/media influence on the Gay/Bi/Whatever board, go for it.  Let's try to stick to the topic this thread was created for! thanks ....

[westexer]

Just a little quibble -- he must have felt some pleasure because they ended up with two children, so I'm assuming he reached orgasm.

Also, I know the short story and movie are different in some aspects, but in the short story, Ennis says he "likes doin' it with women" but just not as much as he does with Jack.

Cara

Hi Cara, this is a snip from one of my other posts elsewhere that touches on this subject.

I have a real hard time equatin sex and love.  ... Sex is an activity that can happen with anyone once tha stimulatin gets goin - hell you can imagine you're anywhere....

Men reach orgasm by themselves while thinkin a lotsa other stuff.  It's called mastrabation.  The important part is ta get tha stimulation goin and tha right image in tha mind and everything else takes care of itself for a lot of us.  Hell a lotsa straight men aren't thinkin of tha woman they're with when their havin sex.  That's tha difference tween just sex and makin love.  As shallow and bad as it sounds, a woman can just be tha vessel for tha sexual activity of a man no matter what package he's attracted to and it isn't fair to tha women.  I used ta be like that at one time in my life and maturity an some rough honesty has moved me away from that.  Honest truth is though, sometimes if ya feel pressured to project a certain image and do a certain sexual activity and live a certain lifestyle, you'll do it till ya just can't stand it no more.  Most gay men I know out here in West Texas who are my age an older have children and grandchildren.  Many my age and younger are married yet don't consider themselves bi.  It's a rough life and not fair to their families, but that's exactly what tha situation is.