Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[Lola]

The conversation sounds unfriendly toward coming out - I'm disappointed.

I'm surprised you don't realize you talk about your sexuality 100% of the time by wearing a wedding ring. You have pictures of your spouses and children at your desk. You write down their names and your boss reads them and you get insurance coverage for them.

I guess you can't imagine how oppressive it is to watch even you - our best allies - talk about your lives all the time and expect gordonleo and me to shut up.

When we go years without saying anything about our lives, people think we're creepy.

I am amazed that these things even have to be mentioned with this group.

   Personally I don't expect people to not talk about their lives in a natural way.  I am all for everyone feeling able to chat about their lives, and doing so.

"Morning John, have a good weekend?"
"Yeah, great thanks, me and my boyfriend went to that new pub that's just opened."

or having a picture of your 'spouse' on your desk

etc etc

is vastly different to going to your boss's office and saying

"I just want to let you know I'm homosexual."

For me, it's the latter I just don't get.   I've already given my reasons, and am hoping that my understanding can be furthered by someone saying why they believe it is necessary to make such a statement in that manner, rather than just letting things come out organically.


_{(I have a feeling we could be having this conversation somewhere more appropriate than the 'were they gay' thread...anyone any ideas?)}

I agree with you 100%!!!!   And I would love to continue the conversation in a new thread!

[mountain boy]

_{(I have a feeling we could be having this conversation somewhere more appropriate than the 'were they gay' thread...anyone any ideas?)}

I agree with you 100%!!!!   And I would love to continue the conversation in a new thread!

Your wish is granted!

[karind1]

 just watched whole movie for 19h time or so last night-and it struck me how very, very much jack loved ennis - until his last breath.  it was so apparent - this last viewing, how obvious jack's pain was, and torment and disappointment of his dreams not being fully realized.  but he loved jack, even when the camera pans bak after the embrace scene.  why is this movie so embedded in my soul.  i am a 58 yo woman for goodness sake.  (I probably was a gay man in last life or will be in next one-gay men together has always turned me on)...but this is a turn on emotionally, and in every way.  it totally makes me feel.  amazing..just amazing.  ennis finally realized how much he loved jack - too late, but finally he let it be.
karin  i don't know if that is gay or bi------------ennis probably went from bi to gay - jack was probably gay trying to e bi.we will never know.

[Lola]

Have you really went 19 times??     I couldn't afford to go to the movies 19 times! lol

[ToolPackinMama]

I say that yes, they are Gay.  What's with all the people who think Gay men can't love women and be fathers?  Ennis and Jack's relationship with each other was clearly the primary love relationship for both of them.  That's where their true passion was. 

[vertimus]

ToolPackinMama, thanks.

I think people are confused because Lee and Proulx give us wives and children in the mix, and some people assume, therefore, I think, that all are 'equal' in the Jack and Ennis mix. Just as they confuse Ennis' emotional troubles and reluctence to live with Jack as proof of his essential heterosexuality.

As I've said, I don't think what Ennis felt for Alma was at any time anything like what he felt for Jack, and for Jack the same thing is true.

Part of the reason--but only part of the reason--why Alma crumbles after she sees them kissing is because she knows she's seeing 'passion' in her husband---not just homosexuality and infidelity.

And she knows she's just been permanently displaced, as indeed she proves to have been. 

[anna19]

HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe you don't agree what i am going to say but this is opinion about this topic.

I think that Ennis is not gay and Jack is. I meant, of course Ennis is not gay.
a gay is a person who has attraction to men and this is not the situation of Ennis, i think.
OK, HE LOVES A MEN, but only one men. he is not interested in other men. but the problem is that he fells in love with a  men, but Ennis is not gay.
ABOUT JACK IS A BIT MORE DIfficult to say if he is or not. In some scene I realises that he is not but i think he is, becuase  when he sees Ennis, he looks at him in a strange way, and JACK IS who starts everything, so I THINK JACK IS AND ENNIS Isn't.
BUT i don't a problem about it. WHILE I WAS WATCHING THE FILm i didn't see 2 men or 2 gays I SAW 2 two people, I doesn't matter if they are male or female, who loves each other VERY MUCH.
BUT WHEN I FINISHED SEEING THE FILM, this was my conclusion about jack and ennis.

byeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Lola]

 

[cythera4]

As I've said, I don't think what Ennis felt for Alma was at any time anything like what he felt for Jack, and for Jack the same thing is true.

Part of the reason--but only part of the reason--why Alma crumbles after she sees them kissing is because she knows she's seeing 'passion' in her husband---not just homosexuality and infidelity.

And she knows she's just been permanently displaced, as indeed she proves to have been. 

I agree, Vertimus, but I'm not sure whether I do because I WANT to believe this or b/c the film gives me sufficient evidence for it. Certainly, Ennis seems willing to stop having sex with Alma on a very slim pretext ("don't want no more of my children"), and when he does have sex with her, he apparently often seems to re-enact the act he did with Jack. And Alma is clearly desolated to realize she has a rival--especially one with whom it's hard to compete on a sexual level. But I don't know. I'm not sure there isn't a spark on Ennis's side for Alma (he initiats the act in the two scenes we see between them in bed)--and the same with Jack for Lureen, at least at first ("I like the direction you're goin' in"). It's complicated, as all desire is. My bottom line is that I think, if given a way of understanding what it means psychologically and socially, and if given a more open environment, Jack would identify as gay. I'm not sure Ennis ever would--but whether that's b/c of his nature or b/c of social attitudes he's internalized, I couldn't say.

[vertimus]

cythera4, they do like their wives and perhaps love them too.  I think Ennis loved Alma more than Jack loved Lureen. But we see no evidence that they loved them passionately, as they loved one another. I think they were homosexual with bisexual tendencies, which is true of many homosexual men, like myself for one. 

[cythera4]

cythera4, they do like their wives and perhaps love them too.  I think Ennis loved Alma more than Jack loved Lureen. But we see no evidence that they loved them passionately, as they loved one another. I think they were homosexual with bisexual tendencies, which is true of many homosexual men, like myself for one. 

Me too. I understand. And as I said before under the "Jack Twist character" thread, what's great about Jake's performance in the early scenes with Lureen is that you can read, on his face, both the fact that he is flattered that this flashy gal likes him and a reticence because he knows, deep down, he can never like her back with the same intensity. It's one of those things that makes his performance so great--and Oscar-worthy!

[BillN]

HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe you don't agree what i am going to say but this is opinion about this topic.

I think that Ennis is not gay and Jack is. I meant, of course Ennis is not gay.
a gay is a person who has attraction to men and this is not the situation of Ennis, i think.
OK, HE LOVES A MEN, but only one men. he is not interested in other men. but the problem is that he fells in love with a  men, but Ennis is not gay.

Anna19, I have to disagree about Ennis - later in the story he asks Jack if he ever senses that when someone looks at him, they know he is gay? That tells me that Ennis wonders if when people look at him they ask the same question. We see Ennis rejecting the love of Cassie, a beautiful woman and of course he has lost Alma before that. The very first scene is "cruisy" for bot characters. We don't see any scenes with Ennis looking at other men, but we do hear him threaten Jack in their last scene together when he talks about the possiblity Jack has had sex with another man. There is no question in my mind that Ennis is gay in the sense he is attracted to men, not women, and at the same time he is horribly repressed about it.

[cythera4]

Anna19, I have to disagree about Ennis - later in the story he asks Jack if he ever senses that when someone looks at him, they know he is gay? That tells me that Ennis wonders if when people look at him they ask the same question. We see Ennis rejecting the love of Cassie, a beautiful woman and of course he has lost Alma before that. The very first scene is "cruisy" for bot characters. We don't see any scenes with Ennis looking at other men, but we do hear him threaten Jack in their last scene together when he talks about the possiblity Jack has had sex with another man. There is no question in my mind that Ennis is gay in the sense he is attracted to men, not women, and at the same time he is horribly repressed about it.

I wonder why the movie decided never to show us Ennis hanging out with other men--coworkers, other ranch hands, etc. We do see Jack trying to interact with (and borderline cruising) men in his social circle. Why do you think that is?

[Uclapeterg]

Anna19, I have to disagree about Ennis - later in the story he asks Jack if he ever senses that when someone looks at him, they know he is gay? That tells me that Ennis wonders if when people look at him they ask the same question. We see Ennis rejecting the love of Cassie, a beautiful woman and of course he has lost Alma before that. The very first scene is "cruisy" for bot characters. We don't see any scenes with Ennis looking at other men, but we do hear him threaten Jack in their last scene together when he talks about the possiblity Jack has had sex with another man. There is no question in my mind that Ennis is gay in the sense he is attracted to men, not women, and at the same time he is horribly repressed about it.

I wonder why the movie decided never to show us Ennis hanging out with other men--coworkers, other ranch hands, etc. We do see Jack trying to interact with (and borderline cruising) men in his social circle. Why do you think that is?

It does show him in another work environment.. after the summer and before the reunion.. there is that guy who he is shoveling tar/dirt(?) with.. but clearly his mind is on other things, even then. 

I don't think Ennis is comfortable enough to be hanging out with other men at this point in his life. He was extremely shy in the trailer and only told Jack his name after Jack asked him.

[cythera4]

It does show him in another work environment.. after the summer and before the reunion.. there is that guy who he is shoveling tar/dirt(?) with.. but clearly his mind is on other things, even then. 

I don't think Ennis is comfortable enough to be hanging out with other men at this point in his life. He was extremely shy in the trailer and only told Jack his name after Jack asked him.

I forgot about that guy, thanks for reminding me. Of course, he's so damn ugly that Ennis couldn't ever be attracted to him. The first time I saw the movie, I thought the guy was Philip Seymour Hoffman!