Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[vertimus]

lighstray05, I know many homosexual men and women who are accepted by their familes and friends. I also see a lot of people here saying the same thing, in addition to those who feel lost and cast-out and in fact have been by their families.

I think one thing we all tend to forget or overlook is that almost everyone has a homosexual man or woman in their extended family, sometimes several, sometimes quite a few. From this fact, a strong web of acceptance and sympathy arises. Many people also often come to know neighbors and friends who are homosexual, and develop their individual understanding via those relationships.

As I've pointd out, Alfred Kinsey discovered that ''ower middle class self-identified heterosexual men' have more homosexual sex than self-identified homosexual men, at least they did in the 30s and 40s of the last century.

That possibly or probably still being the case, what do you think actually causes so much of the hatred and violence we know exists? 

[hayek_uk]

Of course we have the same amount of inner troubles as the average person, but not more, except those arising from bias and prejudice. Which I'm sure you faced then too.   

 

But, again, blacks have also some internal doubts of their "value", but they *do* get support AT LEAST from their families.

How many gay people are shunned by their families?

How many people are shunned by their families like homosexuals are?

Not that many.

Throughout many, many, many societies homosexuals have been shunned by their families.

And that's the biggest tragedy of them all.

There are no comparisons!

Again I speak for others, my whole family loves me. Both sides of them. Well, I don't know if I am "loved", but shunned I am not. I am among the few. The majority of the homosexual experience is contempt, even hatred, to their very own beings!

And even when their families try to love them, they don't know how to... or the things they do and say that they think are loving are not so -- because they too carry all the psychological baggage of their upbringing and lives, permanently reinforced by contemporary social conditions. Or gay people cannot accept that loving...

I do think the internalisation of stigmatisation is part of the dynamic of sexual and loving relations for black people, and that it is heightened in "interracial" relationships -- but can anyone see that leading to the kind of separation that occurred between Jack and Ennis at the end of the summer, or the extraordinary heaving, wall-punching gut-ache that Ennis experienced (the significance of which, in the short story, he himself later correctly interpreted, though without hinting at the process that gave rise to those violent symptoms).

[cythera4]

This must be the definitive review.

He gets a few of the details wrong, but yeah, for once we're seeing a review that nails the central theme of the film.  Most reviewers can't see over their own heap of baggage well enough to make out what's actually happening up on that screen.

I agree, the review is excellent--and a necessary corrective to all the blather about "universal love." I just wish he'd said something about how extraordinary Gyllenhaal's performance is in conveying the necessary furtiveness of gay self-assertion in this social context. It is as brilliantly rendered a depiction of the "closet" as Ledger's more obviously self-tortured performance.

[karind1]

gotta read this now:  it is from ny review of books 2/3/06   wow whoa wow
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18712

[cythera4]

I just wrote the following Letter to the Editor of the NYT Book Review responding to the review of BBM:


Dear Editor:

I would like to salute Daniel Mendelsohn for saying what needed to be said about the mainstream reception of Ang Lee's film _Brokeback Mountain_, which had all but erased the specificity of the relationship being depicted in favor of vague blather about "universal love." As Mendlesohn compellingly shows, this is a very _particular_ kind of love story, one that is tortured and heartbreaking for very _precise_ reasons.

My only quarrel with the review is Mendlesohn's claim that the "sole visual representation of their [Ennis and Jack's] happiness in love is a single brief shot of the two shirtless youths horsing around in the grass." This ignores what is arguably the most powerful image in the movie (and in Annie Proulx's original short story): the late flashback to their original summer together, when Ennis enfolded Jack in a loving embrace. As Proulx describes the moment: "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger." On the one hand, this scene shows what their relationship could have been if not for the pressures of compulsory heterosexuality and internalized homophobia. But it also signals to straight audiences the purity and depth of gay love--that it isn't just about sex, but about deep and irrepressible longings for companionship, protection, and mutual compassion. It is amazing to watch this film, as I have, surrounded by people who have probably never thought deeply about gay relationships--about whether they can possess the purity, caring intimacy, and full emotional resonance of straight relationships. That scene proves it, in my opinion, by invoking something that _is_ "universal" in us: the need to love and be loved in return. If a bit of shrewd dissimulation by Ang Lee and the film's producers was necessary in order to get this message out there to a wide audience, I think they can be forgiven.

[hayek_uk]

I just wrote the following Letter to the Editor of the NYT Book Review responding to the review of BBM:


Dear Editor:

I would like to salute Daniel Mendelsohn for saying what needed to be said about the mainstream reception of Ang Lee's film _Brokeback Mountain_, which had all but erased the specificity of the relationship being depicted in favor of vague blather about "universal love." As Mendlesohn compellingly shows, this is a very _particular_ kind of love story, one that is tortured and heartbreaking for very _precise_ reasons.

My only quarrel with the review is Mendlesohn's claim that the "sole visual representation of their [Ennis and Jack's] happiness in love is a single brief shot of the two shirtless youths horsing around in the grass." This ignores what is arguably the most powerful image in the movie (and in Annie Proulx's original short story): the late flashback to their original summer together, when Ennis enfolded Jack in a loving embrace. As Proulx describes the moment: "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger." On the one hand, this scene shows what their relationship could have been if not for the pressures of compulsory heterosexuality and internalized homophobia. But it also signals to straight audiences the purity and depth of gay love--that it isn't just about sex, but about deep and irrepressible longings for companionship, protection, and mutual compassion. It is amazing to watch this film, as I have, surrounded by people who have probably never thought deeply about gay relationships--about whether they can possess the purity, caring intimacy, and full emotional resonance of straight relationships. That scene proves it, in my opinion, by invoking something that _is_ "universal" in us: the need to love and be loved in return. If a bit of shrewd dissimulation by Ang Lee and the film's producers was necessary in order to get this message out there to a wide audience, I think they can be forgiven.

That is so beautifully put.

[Jermaine P]

My only quarrel with the review is Mendlesohn's claim that the "sole visual representation of their [Ennis and Jack's] happiness in love is a single brief shot of the two shirtless youths horsing around in the grass." This ignores what is arguably the most powerful image in the movie (and in Annie Proulx's original short story): the late flashback to their original summer together, when Ennis enfolded Jack in a loving embrace. As Proulx describes the moment: "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger." On the one hand, this scene shows what their relationship could have been if not for the pressures of compulsory heterosexuality and internalized homophobia. But it also signals to straight audiences the purity and depth of gay love--that it isn't just about sex, but about deep and irrepressible longings for companionship, protection, and mutual compassion. It is amazing to watch this film, as I have, surrounded by people who have probably never thought deeply about gay relationships--about whether they can possess the purity, caring intimacy, and full emotional resonance of straight relationships. That scene proves it, in my opinion, by invoking something that _is_ "universal" in us: the need to love and be loved in return. If a bit of shrewd dissimulation by Ang Lee and the film's producers was necessary in order to get this message out there to a wide audience, I think they can be forgiven.

Bravo cythera4! Very well put. That scene sort of represents 'the other side of the coin' so to speak of what could have been (sort of like what Jack wished for) and what unfortunately and tragically could not happen. A very powerful piece of imagery.

[gordonleo]

just a little life story

when i was 40, i decided to come out and live as an openly gay man

as part of that journey, i went to the director of my work place (ontario government - ministry of community and social services) and announced my new found self and my new intentions

she was very supportive and very gracious - and she said

You know gordonleo this ministry is very very tolerant and very very accepting

AND - in my heart of hearts and soul of souls my minds voice said

until this very moment - you were always just gordonleo
and now you are tolerable and acceptable

ouch -

it is a long lonely isolated hard road (and i have only seldom regretted leaving the closet)

to quote McMurtry and Ossana when they write about ennis looking out of jacks window "a window looks down on the dirt road stretching south ... the only road out of this godforsaken place."

[Lola]

just a little life story

when i was 40, i decided to come out and live as an openly gay man

as part of that journey, i went to the director of my work place (ontario government - ministry of community and social services) and announced my new found self and my new intentions

she was very supportive and very gracious - and she said

You know gordonleo this ministry is very very tolerant and very very accepting

AND - in my heart of hearts and soul of souls my minds voice said

until this very moment - you were always just gordonleo
and now you are tolerable and acceptable

ouch -

it is a long lonely isolated hard road (and i have only seldom regretted leaving the closet)

to quote McMurtry and Ossana when they write about ennis looking out of jacks window "a window looks down on the dirt road stretching south ... the only road out of this godforsaken place."

 you were always just gordonleo until you went and announced your new found self.  I am just wondering why you even felt the need to do that??


and I still agree with Roger Ebert:

"Brokeback Mountain" could tell its story and not necessarily be a great movie. It could be a melodrama. It could be a "gay cowboy movie." But the filmmakers have focused so intently and with such feeling on Jack and Ennis that the movie is as observant as work by Bergman. Strange but true: The more specific a film is, the more universal, because the more it understands individual characters, the more it applies to everyone. I can imagine someone weeping at this film, identifying with it, because he always wanted to stay in the Marines, or be an artist or a cabinetmaker.


This movie has a huge audience, other than gay people, straight people who relate to this movie in so many ways, nothing wrong with that at all.

[gordonleo]

just a little life story

when i was 40, i decided to come out and live as an openly gay man

as part of that journey, i went to the director of my work place (ontario government - ministry of community and social services) and announced my new found self and my new intentions

she was very supportive and very gracious - and she said

You know gordonleo this ministry is very very tolerant and very very accepting

AND - in my heart of hearts and soul of souls my minds voice said

until this very moment - you were always just gordonleo
and now you are tolerable and acceptable

ouch -

it is a long lonely isolated hard road (and i have only seldom regretted leaving the closet)

to quote McMurtry and Ossana when they write about ennis looking out of jacks window "a window looks down on the dirt road stretching south ... the only road out of this godforsaken place."

 you were always just gordonleo until you went and announced your new found self.  I am just wondering why you even felt the need to do that??


and I still agree with Roger Ebert:

"Brokeback Mountain" could tell its story and not necessarily be a great movie. It could be a melodrama. It could be a "gay cowboy movie." But the filmmakers have focused so intently and with such feeling on Jack and Ennis that the movie is as observant as work by Bergman. Strange but true: The more specific a film is, the more universal, because the more it understands individual characters, the more it applies to everyone. I can imagine someone weeping at this film, identifying with it, because he always wanted to stay in the Marines, or be an artist or a cabinetmaker.


This movie has a huge audience, other than gay people, straight people who relate to this movie in so many ways, nothing wrong with that at all.

its part of the coming out process lola -- you have to announce who you are -- i felt the need to be open and whole and complete - you perspective suggests its ok to be closeted - like ennis -- not so

[Lola]

No not at all, but I am not sure why you felt a need to tell the director of your work place??

I am being serious when I say I really don't understand that.  And then when you did speak to her, I am not sure I understood your reaction to what she said.

Just confused I guess   

[helen_uk]

No not at all, but I am not sure why you felt a need to tell the director of your work place??

I am being serious when I say I really don't understand that.  And then when you did speak to her, I am not sure I understood your reaction to what she said.

Just confused I guess   

Can I second what Lola says?  I'd really like to understand why you felt you had to declare your sexuality to your boss.   

[Uclapeterg]

No not at all, but I am not sure why you felt a need to tell the director of your work place??

I am being serious when I say I really don't understand that.  And then when you did speak to her, I am not sure I understood your reaction to what she said.

Just confused I guess   

Can I second what Lola says?  I'd really like to understand why you felt you had to declare your sexuality to your boss.   

why not??

[helen_uk]

Why not what?

[cythera4]

Why not what?

Why not tell your boss? Is it something to be ashamed of? I think that was the import of the question. Also, it might be good for the work place to know so that one's coworkers can avoid making casual homophobic comments.