Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[Caroline]

Lola,
IMHO.. I think Ennis did not pursue a relationship with Cassie, because there was no way that ANYONE would ever replace Jack in his heart and he didn't at that point in his life, have any more energy to devote to any type of relationship. For him, Cassie was only a means for his sexual gratification.. he did not have Jack's more open outlook and Mexico to  compensate for not having Jack.. purely only physical for Ennis.. but in trying to have a relationship with Cassie, well he just couldn't do it. His emotions were all tied up in one person. Jack.. not Alma, not Cassie, just Jack. That was all he had room for in his psyche.. only Jack. He was so closed off and repressed, that to let another in would have blown him up so to speak...he came close to that with having Jack in his life. so he shoutout everyone else, except his daughters (because to deal with and love his daughters, well that came from a deep well that did not eat him up.. he needed their love as much as he needed Jack.)

[vertimus]

Caroline and Lola, as I said yesterday, that may very well be true that Ennis might never have taken up active homosexuality if not for Jack, unless another man entered his life with some force and was able to touch Ennis just as deeply at a crucial moment.

However, that doesn't mean that Ennis wouldn't have been a homosexual or bisexual male, even if he never had sex with another male.

Sometimes men don't accept or even 'discover' their homosexual impulses until they're well into middle age: does that mean, looking back on them in their 20s, that they weren't bisexual? Did it suddenly come completely out of nowhere, as if by miracle? No it didn't. It's always been a part of the animal they were and are.

Also as I said, a woman can know that she's a lesbian, become a nun for 35 years, remain celebate the entire time and not even masturbate, and yet still be a lesbian that entire time. We all have 'sex lives' in our psyches as well as in our actual beds (or elsewhere).

In the early 80s, a book came out in America called 'Lesbian Nuns: Breaking Silence," and that's one of the first sources that clued me in to all of this.

Another example is, let's say, a 15 year old girl: she has sexual impules and fantasies, does she not? Of course she does if she's healthy and normal. So she has a 'sex life' even though she's technically a virgin, and, for the sake of argument, let's say she's also never masturbated.

Thanks.

[Lola]

Like I said Caroline...........he didn't persue a relationship with her because he didn't love her.  I agree, his love for Jack was all consuming, he couldn't have loved anyone else, man or woman.

As for his daughters, someone touched on that in another post.  That maybe the oldest daughter, in the end, knew the truth about her Dad and she was okay with it.  I hope that is true.  Ennis deserved to have someone in his corner, someone who truly understood him and this remarkable love he had for another person.

[Lola]

vertimus I see what you are saying.  So even if Jack had never had sex with anyone ever again, his sexuality is still there within him.  But what is that sexuality?  That is what we disagree on?

I think he loved a woman and he loved a man, he loved 2 individuals in his life, not counting his daughters.  But he loved Jack more, but did he love Jack because he was a man, or did he love a man because he was Jack??

 

[Caroline]

Vertimus,

So what you are saying is that Ennis, as a 15 year old (to site your example of the virgin girl) lay back in his bed and had sexual fantasies about guys? That at some point up until he met Jack, that he had at least at in some circumstance, homosexual fantasies?

Is that not pushing it a bit far.. what about this... Ennis as a 15 year oold, etc up until he met Jack, had NEVER thought about having sexual encounters with men.. (ahh, wait a minute... Annie tells us of course that Ennis as a 9 year old had been shown Earl, in all his tragic bloodiness) bear with me, I am trying to understand where you are coming from... lets say it was the case, he had never had these fantasies, obviously he had a relationship with Alma, they were getting married at the end of the summer... then he meets Jack.. not interested "that way" with Jack, but Jack slowly takes over in his heart and soul, letting Ennis give into a love he has never known in his life, ever, no how no way,... and so he comes to love Jack physically and mentally and spiritually... but does the fact that he falls in love with Jack make him gay?.

(I already may have the answer in my mind, but am still putting my argument out to you Vertimus)

[vertimus]

Caroline, thanks. I'd say that yes, it is entirely possible that Ennis had sexual fantasies about men at 15.

Think about it: we don't know why he became engaged to Alma, but we do know that he had no place to go when he came down off BBM.

I've theorized that they--Alma and Ennis--may have been the only two young people in their neck of the woods, and thus the marriage was more or less arranged for practical/financial reasons (but social as well, as in 'marriage is what young people do,' especially in rural areas).   

Next time you see BBM, watch those early scenes when Ennis allows his eyes to follow Jack: it happens in the very first scene. And later again several times on the mountain. Now, if you're so inclined, you may say, "Well, Ennis is just looking at him," but it's also entirely possible that Ennis is---shyly, certainly--admiring Jack and taking him in as a man, as a male. I think we see something approaching longing in Ennis's face in several of those early scenes.

Not all homosexual men by far are comfortable with their desires at that age, and thus would act exactly as Ennis did, looking on the sly, and not quite, perhaps, understanding why. And trust me, you can have very active homosexual fantasies at 12 or 13 and still more or less live in active denial of them even if you indulge them every day.

The way you are presenting it, it seems to me, and I don't mean this offensively, is almost as if heterosexual men can be 'converted' by homosexual men where no desire or homosexual potential has existed in them before, which is the 1970s Anita Bryant POV.

Jack didn't convert or 'create' in Ennis anything that wasn't there already. Ennis isn't a homosexual pod person!

Look at it this way: a mother discovers her shy 16 year old daughter has been having sex with the 21 year old roustabout and neighborhood tough: what's the first thing mothers/fathers/parents usually say in such circumstances? 

"OH! You monster! Look what YOU'VE DONE to my daughter!"

The mother rarely initially considers that the daughter may in fact have been the one to initiate the relationship or sexual activity. As is often the case. Nor do parents in such situations consider that what has been going on between the parties is something that the daughter desires, enjoys, and may cherish deeply.

And the parents may not be able to accept that their young daughter has strong, very strong, very definte sexual desires, as if sometimes the case.

[Lola]

Ennis tells Jack about something he saw as a boy. "There were two old guys shacked up together. They were the joke of the town, even though they were pretty tough old birds." One day they were found beaten to death. Ennis says: "My dad, he made sure me and my brother saw it. For all I know, he did it."

This childhood memory is always there, the ghost in the room, in Ang Lee's "Brokeback Mountain." When he was taught by his father to hate homosexuals, Ennis was taught to hate his own feelings. Years after he first makes love with Jack on a Wyoming mountainside, after his marriage has failed, after his world has compressed to a mobile home, the laundromat, the TV, he still feels the same pain: "Why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this -- nothing, and nobody."


Honestly I doubt Ennis was having fantasies about men at 15.  But that is just my opinion, as it is your opinion that he might have.

I don't think he had a "thought" until that summer with Jack!   As for Jack being the predator, no way.  Ennis was ready for Jack, just like Jack was ready for Ennis, they were on the same page that summer.


heterosexual men can be 'converted' by homosexual men where no desire or homosexual potential has existed in them before

We would have to believe Jack was homosexual, I don't think he had been with any men either, up until that point.

Did you ever see Six Degrees of Seperation, with Will Smith, he seduces a hetrosexual male and it works!  At least according to the movie.   

[mountain boy]

I am not sure why people keep bringing up Cassie - Ennis said he was putting the blocks to Cassie - he didn't persue a relationship with her because he didn't love her.

So do we really know what "putting the blocks" to Cassie means? I think Annie (on Ennis's behalf) chose this phrase carefully to be ambiguous. Ennis wants Jack to wonder whether Ennis means he is putting his testicles to Cassie, or blocking himself away from her because he really wants to be with Jack. He wants this to be ambiguous because he feels ambivalent about it himself.

[Caroline]

The way you are presenting it, it seems to me, and I don't mean this offensively, is almost as if heterosexual men can be 'converted' by homosexual men where no desire or homosexual potential has existed in them before, which is the 1970s Anita Bryant POV.

Jack didn't convert or 'create' in Ennis anything that wasn't there already. Ennis isn't a homosexual pod person!

That's fair enough that you may be reading my response to you in that way. Words are always subject to our interpretations when we read them.. No, I am not offended by your real feelings about what I wrote.. However, what I would like to say is that I am writing this from a woman's perspective...First of all, NO ABSLOUTELY NOT do I nor will I EVER condone the ludicrous notion that people can be "converted" to homosexuality or to heterosexuality, whatever the case may be. It is stupidity that makes people think that way, and I do not number myself amongst those...

I was only looking at the idea of Ennis not having sexual feelings for men, or perhaps not recognizing them as such and that it took Jack, with all his soul opening richness of character, his embracing of his sexuality, his sureness in who he was and how he fell in love with Ennis, that caused Ennis to open up to him and take in, like a breathe of fresh air, all the love he had been missing in his life.. please understand that this is from my romantic perspective.. love is what changes everything for Ennis, what Jack gives him..

Have I explained that enough. I hope so...

[zachUK]

... then he meets Jack.. not interested "that way" with Jack, but Jack slowly takes over in his heart and soul, letting Ennis give into a love he has never known in his life, ever, no how no way,... and so he comes to love Jack physically and mentally and spiritually... but does the fact that he falls in love with Jack make him gay?.

(I already may have the answer in my mind, but am still putting my argument out to you Vertimus)

I think you have answered the question ... yes, it does make him gay (substitute the word homosexual if you politically object to the word 'gay'). 

If Ennis 'comes to' love Jack physically, mentally and spiritually then he must have been attracted to men at some deep, intrinsic, hind-brain level.  If this premise doesn't hold, then surely we would be seeing swathes of straight men falling in love with their best buds.

[Lola]

I think it is safe to say that Ennis was having sex with Cassie.  And I not sure what that means to the story, if anything??

My point was he didn't persue a relationship with her because he didn't love her.   Not because she was a woman and he couldn't bare to be in love or have sex with a woman.

But because he was "in love" with another, and that other was Jack!   

[Caroline]

... then he meets Jack.. not interested "that way" with Jack, but Jack slowly takes over in his heart and soul, letting Ennis give into a love he has never known in his life, ever, no how no way,... and so he comes to love Jack physically and mentally and spiritually... but does the fact that he falls in love with Jack make him gay?.

(I already may have the answer in my mind, but am still putting my argument out to you Vertimus)

I think you have answered the question ... yes, it does make him gay (substitute the word homosexual if you politically object to the word 'gay'). 

If Ennis 'comes to' love Jack physically, mentally and spiritually then he must have been attracted to men at some deep, intrinsic, hind-brain level.  If this premise doesn't hold, then surely we would be seeing swathes of straight men falling in love with their best buds.

As a Mod, I detest nested quotes, except for circumstances when it is in context... so here are my nested quotes never to be done again... (reallly Meli)

Okay, in answer to that, if Ennis comes to love Jack.. why is it a given that Ennis is therefore attracted to men... why not the theory, that Ennis was attracted to ONLY Jack and never in his lifetime would he ever have been attracted to any other man ever. period. amen.... I put forward the theory that it was always ONLY Jack..  and who knows how many straight men, actually DO fall in love with their best buds... has this been asked, do we really know the answer for this..??

[Lola]

But I think it would be wrong to say that the only way that the characters could be interpreted is the way that the actors thought. And maybe in 20 years time Heath Ledger might say, I was wrong about the way I played Ennis, now I think I should have played him as.....(fill in your own thoughts here!).

I agree (hey did anyone ever tell you that you look like Jake, lol)

I think Heath and Jake already said that in the Oprah interview, they said watching their performances, they see alot they would have played differently.

Everyone brings something to the table with this movie and it affects how we see it and interpet it.  And if effected how the director directed it and how the stars played their roles.


and Caroline;

Okay, in answer to that, if Ennis comes to love Jack.. why is it a given that Ennis is therefore attracted to men... why not the theory, that Ennis was attracted to ONLY Jack and never in his lifetime would he ever have been attracted to any other man ever. period. amen.... I put forward the theory that it was always ONLY Jack..  and who knows how many straight men, actually DO fall in love with their best buds... has this been asked, do we really know the answer for this..??

I agree 100%

[helen_uk]

My opinion? Confused.

We are all coming into this debate with our preconceived labels in place, and we are trying to fit Ennis (in this particular instance) into one of the catagories that we have lined up in front of us.  Homo-, Bi- or Hetero-sexual.  Which one is he we are all asking.  What box can we put him in?

Why can't he just be Ennis Del Mar in his own box?

[Lola]

I already suggested that and some people didn't like the idea! lol   The whole point of the movie, to me anyway, is to do away with labels.