Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[gnash]

I used to tell straight guys I was "bi". It makes the point without shocking them quite as much. Several would say "I might be bi, too."

whoa, that's really hot...  sounds like an invite, like ennis saying "...i haven't yet had the opportunity."

[Lola]

Purely in terms of facts, we only know they indulged in anal lovemaking and holding one another, nothing more. At least from the film.

correct

[helen_uk]

On those rare occasions when something breaks thru his composure, rips a hole in that fortress, Ennis goes absolutely apeshit.  He practically rapes Jack that first night in the tent.  He pukes his guts out and rams his fist into a wall when they part.  The ultimate happens during their reunion after 4 years though, when he slams Jack into a wall and ravishes him in broad daylight in a scene that's hotter than any gay porno ever filmed.

This is not the behavior of a man who is remotely straight.  This is more like a drowning man coming up for air. 

But in those few moments when we see the intention of his heart, we see that intention is as queer as queer can get.

I really, really do not get how people can come to the conclusion that not only is he not fully homosexual, but that he is straight!  I mean, sure, maybe he'd indulge in some anal sex for the summer just to releive himself, but you don't have a 20-year relationship of love and sex with another man if you are heterosexual.

I can't help thinking that there's some kind of denial going on somewhere.

[vertimus]

ZachUK, you're right, of course, that in the 'broad homosexual world,' analingus is better known by far as 'rimming.'

I assumed the young lady I was responding to already knew that. 'Tossing the Salad' is the slang jargon used on the streets of NYC largely by the heterosexual Hispanic population. 

Of course, rimming so-called isn't only practiced by homosexuals. For many heterosexual people, especially of southern European extraction, it's a normal part of making love, if not something necessarily practiced on every occasion.

It's not a big heterosexual WASP thing in America as far as I can tell, but there's a lot of reasons for that. And that's no surprise.

[aevkc]

I agree that they were both gay.  In my earlier post I was just trying to get inside Jake's head when he said he approached the role as though Jack were straight and happened to fall in love with a man.  As a straight man, maybe that's the only way he could get inside Jack's head or something.  Doesn't really matter, because how ever he played it, it worked.

[vertimus]

Sunspot and helen_uk, I appreciated your posts.

It boggles my mind somewhat that anyone could see BBM and not see that Ennis is a self-denying, unaccepting homosexual male, with bisexual tendencies, which may be only forced, and thus not genuinely motivated.

Helen, I agree with you that some seem to be in denial about Ennis (that's denying the self-denied) as if a bit of salvation has to be extracted from their pairing, and that salvation is that Ennis was not homosexual at all, but a victim, more or less, of 'circumstance.' And a heterosexual victim. 

And that argument, of course, can feed directly into the 'Jack was a predator who manipulated, victimized, and set Ennis up' scenerio, though it doesn't necessarily have to.

BUT that second arguement can in turn lead to a dangerous third: that Jack was a stalking, insensitive monster, a home-wrecker who deserved what he got when the tire iron came down on his face. Fucking faggot.

Potentially dangerous, treacherous waters.

[helen_uk]

Potentially dangerous, treacherous waters.

Yup, it's a fine line indeed.

[vertimus]

Treacherous waters...which I hope people realize, because it's very easy, by a few simple turns of reasoning and logic, to make Jack that monster, a monster who deserved his violent murder.

All things being what they are, I'm surprised the film's enemies, which are a small legion, haven't thought to turn the film on its head in this manner.

Perhaps some have; if so, I haven't encountered them or their work yet.

A few weeks ago, I saw what I felt initially was a vile and worthless film: The Devil's Rejects. But by the end, I saw what Zombie had done: he made the three antagonists so evil, so vile, so monsterous and sadistic, that when law inforcement agents finally cornered them we, the audeince, rooted for the police to practically hack them into pieces for their crimes.

Yes, and thus showing us that all of us, under certain conditions, can be compelled to feel an absolutely murderous and Fully Justified, Zealously Executed sense of rage and revenge.

And I imagine that's how some will feel about Jack: that he was a predator who only got what he deserved, especially since he corrupted, perverted, and destroyed the long-limbed, fair-haired American ideal.

[Lola]

BUT that second arguement can in turn lead to a dangerous third: that Jack was a stalking, insensitive monster, a home-wrecker who deserved what he got when the tire iron came down on his face. Fucking faggot.

Potentially dangerous, treacherous waters.

I can tell you that thought never entered into my head in a million years, and I have never heard "anyone" on here say or even imply anything like that.

I have read through so much here (on this site) and I still go with my gutt feeling (the same feeling I had the night leaving the theatre) in that Ennis would have stayed on the straight and narrow his whole life if he had not met and fell in love with Jack (and it is nice to know Heath Ledger agrees)

And Jack I think was bi-sexual, I think he was in a bad (unloving) marriage, but I think he could have loved men and women equally, but of course no one more than Ennis.....and that is why he sought out other men, always looking for what he had with Ennis - love.

As for needing them to be straight or bi, that is crazy.

In fact after coming to this site and seeing what this movie means to people (not just straight people) but homosexual and bi-sexual people, I now wish they had been "gayer" lol and the lines weren't as fuzzy.

But if they had been, I don't think it would be "Brokeback Mountain"

Someone said this movie is like an onion, with all sorts of layers, I agree.  I also think it is has universal appeal, that is why it is up for 8 academy awards - it is not just a movie about 2 gay cowboys - it is so much more than that.


Two souls coming together, it doesn't get any better than that.

[Lola]

Yes, and thus showing us that all of us, under certain conditions, can be compelled to feel an absolutely murderous and Fully Justified, Zealously Executed sense of rage and revenge.

Sure we can feel that, but not toward JACK!!  OMG never toward Jack.  I felt like that in Training Day, I love Denzel, so it came as a shock to me when I wanted to jump in the screen and rip his face off! lol

[vertimus]

Lola, I think you're giving a way more than you realize, perhaps.

Firstly, I'm sure no one here thinks that about Jack--I'm referring to the film's enemies, which, as I said, are a small legion. Look on the Yahoo movie page, for instance, and read some of the extremely silly but very hateful reviews there.

We here love Jack, by and large: we have no reason on earth to attempt to find a way to defame him much less justify his murder.

You use the term 'straight and narrow'--don't you realize the several meanings in that particular onion of yours, and I'm not referring to the use of the word 'straight.'

I'll ask you outright: are you implying that if Jack and Ennis had bought a small ranch together and left their wives, they would no longer be on 'the straight and narrow,' because what you consider 'straight and narrow' (i.e., 'proper') is soley defined by a heterosexual union in a heterosexual society?

Let me tell you what I think directly: if they were divorced, supporting their children from a distance, in love, and harming no one, and living together on a sweet little ranch in Arizona, New Mexico, or Montana, I think their lives would be 'fully proper' and certainly on the 'straight and narrow.'

I can't tell for certain, of course, but you seem to have at least a small bias that you don't realize you have.

[Lola]

Sorry poor choice of words I guess.  I meant "straight" don't know what the "narrow" part was suppose to be, just an expression.

if Jack and Ennis had bought a small ranch together and left their wives, they would not be living as straight men, they would be "out" in their sexual preference.  But they would be living a life just like any other loving couple.

I do think their lives would have been fully proper, at least in my eyes.

I have never been over to Yahoo, I can't stand to read stuff like that, it makes me sick to my stomach.  Believe me I have no bias.

[Caroline]

Vertimus, I absolutely agree... "straight and narrow" is one of those ambiguous terms, that defies complete definition. I think, in the context in which it was used, it meant that he would have continued exhibiting and staying within the confines of his heterosexuality, ie, he would never have sought out another man but rather would have stayed loving Alma and the children..
I agree, that should he and Jack have had their own little "cow and calf operation" lived their lives together, that would be Ennis have been HIS straight and narrow, in terms of it would have been the norm for him (hence another definition of that expression)

[SquallCloud]

I feel that Ennis is probably only vaguely attracted to men if at all.

But that doesn't make any sense.  If Ennis is so attracted to women, why does he screw his wife from behind (in the butt, according to the short story) and why does he brush off Cassie, a beautiful woman who's obviously over the moon in love with him?

*shrugs* Makes sense to me.

Although the rest of your points are intriguing. I wouldn't dismiss the possibilties out of hand.

[Lola]

Caroline, I agree with you, I guess you explained what I meant better than I did.   

I am not sure why people keep bringing up Cassie - Ennis said he was putting the blocks to Cassie - he didn't persue a relationship with her because he didn't love her.