Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[Desecra]

[quote author=Paul029 link=topic=19.msg2225950#msg2225950 date=1329812918
 Here I must disagree, Des.
You’ve just said that “Jack ... makes it clear that Ennis's refusal to embrace face to face was a thing of the past.”

So, if he’s not making it up, why is he not only thinking it, but knows it (to be true)?

(i.e. “...even the knowledge...”)

What we’re being told has little to do with Ennis, and everything (and not just “something”) to do with Jack.


[/quote]

The simplest answer is just that Jack knows it to be true.  It's not the "suspicion", the "fear", etc., but the "knowledge".   Presumably there was enough physical interaction between them (they were having sex, after all!) for Jack to know if Ennis was avoiding anything. 

[Paul029]

~snip ~ There seem to be three stages:
On Brokeback, Ennis appears to accept what's between them, but it turns out it's only because he avoids knowing what he feels for Jack.
Between the reunion and the last meeting, Ennis has managed to accept what he feels for Jack, but doesn't accept Jack himself.
After Jack's death, Ennis finally accepts Jack and their relationship.

("accept" might not be the perfect word here)

Thanks, Des.
I could be wrong here, but your three stages appear to be responses to my simple (Socratic) questions (Would you agree? Do you think? etc.) rather than my pointing out things....

Well, now I know what you mean, although I have funny feeling that you've slightly changed your tune.

I think we should all ask each other simple questions rather than telling each other what we think:

Socratic communication will improve the ability to communicate and reflect upon your own ideas. It enhances a person's reasoning skills and it leaves the person to respond with many options to express their views. Even simple one word questions like: really? , how? or why? can be effective.

What do you think?  

[janjo]

But didn't Jack "know" after twenty years experience of Ennis, rather than at the time when he wouldn't have "known" how things would turn out?

[Paul029]

But didn't Jack "know" after twenty years experience of Ennis, rather than at the time when he wouldn't have "known" how things would turn out?

"Retrospective knowledge can be cruelly deceptive, Amanda."

 

[fofol]

yes, they were gay.

[Desecra]

Thanks, Des.
I could be wrong here, but your three stages appear to be responses to my simple (Socratic) questions (Would you agree? Do you think? etc.) rather than my pointing out things....

Well, now I know what you mean, although I have funny feeling that you've slightly changed your tune.

I think we should all ask each other simple questions rather than telling each other what we think:

What do you think?  

I don't think I've changed my tune.  I still think that Jack's thoughts reveal as much about Ennis as Jack.  

I know I didn't answer all your questions, but that was because they were in response to something which I'd worded badly, and I think that you thought that I thought that Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face after the reunion.  That's not what I thought  .  I'll give your questions a go now, from the point of view that I think Ennis's physical avoidance was confined to Brokeback.

While Proulx’s adverb suggests that it’s possible that Jack’s right in what he thinks, it’s not a certainty—he just doesn’t know. Would you agree?

I don't agree. I think it's certain (as certain as Alma's thoughts about Ennis), and another part of the story (the FNIT) backs him up .

Ennis had no hesitation in leaping onto Jack's bones on the Riverton landing, oblivious to possible passers-by (unlike the film’s interpretation).
Do you think that he’d be reluctant to do so when the possibility of onlookers was obviously remote?
(Well, there’s one “onlooker” that we know about, the bear looking for grubs, but I suppose he doesn’t really count.  )

Funnily enough, he wasn't worried about onlookers on Brokeback, despite the sounds of civilisation, the knowledge that there were people around (Aguirre, the Forest Service, the other sheep herders, etc.), and even despite telling him that they'd probably been seen.    I don't think it was just about onlookers but also about what they were doing.  He's bothered by what they do later - thinks they could get killed for the kiss, and that his father would kill them if he'd walked into the motel room.    Ennis's reluctance on Brokeback wasn't about being observed, but about his own feelings, I think.   He avoided the issue.  

Do you think that he would be less eager simply because they were now meeting once or twice a year, rather than every four years?

I don't know.  I do that his physical reluctance finished once he (sort of) accepted that he was attracted to Jack, and managed to tell himself that it didn't mean he was gay.   I think the reunion kiss happened after the four years partly because Ennis wasn't prepared.   I don't think he'd thought that far ahead, and probably meant to just hug Jack, like any guy might greet an old friend.   But, of course, they'd never done that before (embrace face to face) and he wasn't to know that it would naturally turn into a passionate embrace instead of a friendly one.    After that, I think he probably avoided them meeting anywhere public, or if they did, he'd have avoided a hug like that until they were somewhere more private.

Proulx refers to the brilliant charge of their couplings (i.e. from 1967-1983), indicating that they continued their sexual activities, and I’d take it as given that their trips involved more than that, as we're told in the May 1983 section of the story, when they lounge against each other by the campfire (“Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close ... Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis’s legs...") prior to rolling down in the dirt.

Do you think that this is exceptional, that Ennis, at that moment (and at others over the years) didn’t know who he was seeing and feeling?

I think Ennis always knew who he was seeing and feeling, but that on Brokeback he didn't want to see or feel that it was Jack he held.  I've been trying to think of an analogy, but it's difficult!  We've all known animal lovers who don't like their food to resemble the animal (don't like heads on fish, etc.).  They know they're eating animal flesh, but they don't want to see that it's a cute animal they're eating.  (Of course, that analogy all falls apart unless they've been taken to see the mutilated corpse of someone who ate animals, etc., but I'm trying to make the point that people might occasionally physically avoid things they don't want to have to think about it).  

I hope those are better answers, and I'm sorry if I've misunderstood .  You might need to dumb it down a little for my sake.   

[Desecra]

But didn't Jack "know" after twenty years experience of Ennis, rather than at the time when he wouldn't have "known" how things would turn out?

Presumably he noticed at the time.  (Perhaps it was one of the reasons why he kept quiet).  The new idea twenty years later isn't about Ennis's reluctance back on Brokeback, but about the fact they hadn't got much farther.   It's that new idea that's based on how things turned out (the last argument).  If Ennis really wouldn't embrace face to face at that time, because he really didn't want to see or feel Jack, then Jack would be bound to notice.   He would also notice that they didn't speak a goddamn word, that the sex was always quick and rough, etc.  Of course he would.   He was falling in love, and would be wondering how Ennis felt.  Anyway, whatever he noticed at the time was enough for him secretly steal Ennis's shirt, and to let him go at the end of the summer.  

(I also think that if Jack didn't notice at the time, he wouldn't suddenly notice 20 years later.    Maybe it doesn't make much difference to the story, but it just seems pretty unfeasible that Jack could be oblivious at the time, but suddenly remember it 20 years on.  And if he really was so bad at picking up on Ennis's cues, then he probably wouldn't have kept quiet, particularly not after the DE).  

Even if things had turned out differently, and Jack and Ennis were happily living together, I don't see how could change what happened on Brokeback.  If the DE had happened, it would still have happened.  If Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face on Brokeback, then he couldn't go back in time and change that, no matter how good things got.   The only thing that would change would be that the DE wouldn't be the "single" moment of artless, charmed happiness, but one of many.   And that 20 years later, Jack could look back and think that they'd got so much farther than that.  

[Lyle (Mooska)]

yes, they were gay.

Straight and to the point!   

[janjo]

And in no doubt, Lyle and Mike.

[janjo]

Presumably he noticed at the time.  (Perhaps it was one of the reasons why he kept quiet).  The new idea twenty years later isn't about Ennis's reluctance back on Brokeback, but about the fact they hadn't got much farther.   It's that new idea that's based on how things turned out (the last argument).  If Ennis really wouldn't embrace face to face at that time, because he really didn't want to see or feel Jack, then Jack would be bound to notice.   He would also notice that they didn't speak a goddamn word, that the sex was always quick and rough, etc.  Of course he would.   He was falling in love, and would be wondering how Ennis felt.  Anyway, whatever he noticed at the time was enough for him secretly steal Ennis's shirt, and to let him go at the end of the summer.  

(I also think that if Jack didn't notice at the time, he wouldn't suddenly notice 20 years later.    Maybe it doesn't make much difference to the story, but it just seems pretty unfeasible that Jack could be oblivious at the time, but suddenly remember it 20 years on.  And if he really was so bad at picking up on Ennis's cues, then he probably wouldn't have kept quiet, particularly not after the DE).  

Even if things had turned out differently, and Jack and Ennis were happily living together, I don't see how could change what happened on Brokeback.  If the DE had happened, it would still have happened.  If Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face on Brokeback, then he couldn't go back in time and change that, no matter how good things got.   The only thing that would change would be that the DE wouldn't be the "single" moment of artless, charmed happiness, but one of many.   And that 20 years later, Jack could look back and think that they'd got so much farther than that.  

But honsetly, it is a bit of a stretch to understand that Jack and Ennis didn't embrace "face to face" at all on Brokeback, and has only ever been considered as gospel by the minority. If Jack is only making assumptions of how Ennis feels, or felt at the time, twenty years later, and as Paul suggests, Ennis would not and could not have hugged Jack unless he knew and wanted, or needed to do it, what is the progress that Jack thinks that they haven't got further than?

I know that sounds convoluted, but I do hope you understand what I am asking here.
"

[Desecra]

But honsetly, it is a bit of a stretch to understand that Jack and Ennis didn't embrace "face to face" at all on Brokeback, and has only ever been considered as gospel by the minority. If Jack is only making assumptions of how Ennis feels, or felt at the time, twenty years later, and as Paul suggests, Ennis would not and could not have hugged Jack unless he knew and wanted, or needed to do it, what is the progress that Jack thinks that they haven't got further than?

I know that sounds convoluted, but I do hope you understand what I am asking here.
"

I don't think it's that much of a stretch.   Whatever they did, Ennis manages to leave the mountain without knowing that he felt something for Jack (beyond friendship).    It makes sense that what they did was limited enough that it didn't give the game away to Ennis.   (In the film, they did embrace face to face, and so Ennis clearly has an idea what he feels for Jack at the end of the summer - hence the part where he explains that he didn't is missed out).  You don't have to think of it as "gospel", but just what Jack remembers (the DE thoughts), and what we see happening (the FNIT).   Jack doesn't need to make assumptions if he was there at the time, on Brokeback, and could observe Ennis's behaviour.  That seems obvious to me, but seems to be a sticking point - what do you see as the problem?  Do you think that if Ennis had acted as Jack remembered, Jack wouldn't notice until years later?

I think the progress Jack saw was at the reunion, and I don't want to repeat too much, but that was the point when Ennis did go some way to accepting his feelings for Jack (instead of believing that Jack was just a friend, as he did on Brokeback).    But what Jack thinks, is that maybe they didn't get much farther than Ennis not wanting to see or feel it was Jack (i.e. being unable to accept his feelings for Jack). 

You're free to believe that Jack was just imagining things, and that those thoughts only tell us about Jack, not Ennis, but I (personally) think that view misses an insight into Ennis's attitude to their sexuality, one which helps to explain why Ennis might have acted as straight whilst being gay.

[janjo]

Thank you for having a go at that question after all of the many times we have discussed the topic, Des.

I think that if Jack and Ennis really did never come face to face in an embrace until the reunion, then that physical action can be seen as "progress," if however that is not the suggestion that the author is actually making, and we both know that is a contentious point, then how much progress did they make in the relationship?
I find it hard to work out how much of Ennis' behaviour is motivated by his own shame and disgust at himself for being gay, (obviously, in our eyes, in this time and place, quite unwarranted), and how much of it is real fear of physical violence, and how much paranoia.
I do know that it all combined together to prevent him from having a proper "live in" relationship with Jack.
He had accepted that Jack was "non negotiable" in his life, and knew that he could never give him up, but on the other hand he never accepted the relationship totally for what it really was until after Jack's death.

[Paul029]

I apologise for my bad sentence construction! To clarify - Ennis no longer wouldn't embrace to face = Ennis' reluctance to embrace face to face was no more.  I presume he would continue to embrace face to face after the reunion (why wouldn't he?), so I kind of agree with your last sentence.   (The only think I feel is slightly different is that I don't think Ennis's feelings intensify so much as that he acknowledges them.   They were intense enough to make him feel the worst he'd ever felt at the time.)

No apology needed, Des. I got your drift.
Which, of course, hinges on your belief that Ennis wouldn’t embrace f2f in the first place.   

[Paul029]

... I have [a] funny feeling that you've slightly changed your tune.

I don't think I've changed my tune.  I still think that Jack's thoughts reveal as much about Ennis as Jack.

Sorry, I was referring to an earlier comment in your post:

What Jack remembers is that Ennis didn't want to see or feel that it was Jack on Brokeback.

Which seemed to me to contradict your “On Brokeback, Ennis appears to accept what's between them...”

It also seemed at odds with what you’d said elsewhere, during another exchange of ours:

... if they both knew that they were men, and if they both knew that they were embracing (whether face-to-face or not face-to-face), it almost beggars belief that the thought that “Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held” would suddenly enter Jack’s mind. It's even a little bizarre.  

Exactly.   As I keep saying, Jack couldn't have got the idea from the DE, because there's no avoidance in the DE itself.  

Ennis clearly knows Jack is a man.   If he wasn't a man, there wouldn't be a problem  .   Or love.   So what would make Jack think Ennis didn't want to see or feel him?   I think it has to be what we're shown - in the [FNIT], Ennis jerks his hand away when Jack tries to get Ennis to feel him.    While that one time alone wouldn't matter too much, if Ennis continued to avoid touching him like that then Jack would reasonably think "He doesn't want to feel me".    If they continued to have sex while avoiding being face to face, it would be reasonable for Jack to think that Ennis didn't want to see him.

I took this to mean that you meant that there was no avoidance in the DE, that Ennis clearly knew that he was seeing and holding Jack.

If I misunderstood, I apologise. (I said it was only “a funny feeling,” anyway.)

Apologies for crossing threads.  

[Paul029]

I hope those are better answers, and I'm sorry if I've misunderstood .  You might need to dumb it down a little for my sake.   

I don’t think that'll be necessary, Des. 

But I do ask what you meant by one answer:

I think Ennis always knew who he was seeing and feeling, but that on Brokeback he didn't want to see or feel that it was Jack he held.

I understood your food analogy, but wondered whether Ennis would be sophisticated enough to play such mind games.

After all, he was only nineteen, and had dropped out of high school. His native intelligence at work, perhaps?