Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[BillN]

They were gay. Jack for sure. Ennis too. He didn't want to be "I ain't no queer".

I think there's an immediate attraction. In the beginning Ennis is trying a little too hard not to look at Jack. Up on BBM we see Ennis looking across the valley for Jack. The book says Ennis spends his days looking across a great gulf for Jack. Ennis is also upset because their summer tryst is cut short by Joe A. I don't think anybody really thinks he's bummed about the money.

Also E takes no pleasure in having sex with his wife. It's duty like everything else in his life. He's almost relieved to not have to anymore. Besides the way E likes to have sex with A takes him back to Jack and BBM.

Ennis is gay from the get-go. He just can't get his arms around the fact until it's too late. He's gay, it's the premise of the movie I think.

Red, agree with your comments. Part of the tragedy of both the story and movie is that Ennis cannot reconcile what he feels for Jack with his homophobia, and being unable to do that, he then cannot deal with the tire iron. Of course, we don't have any history of Ennis before he meets Jack other than his brief statements of his parents accident and being raised by his brother and sister. So we don't know if he admitted to himself that he was attracted to boys then men, or that was totally surpressed by the incident when he was nine years old. We know a little more about Jack because we get to see his boyhood home and meet his parents, but again we aren't told of his years between living at home and then meeting Ennis.

[vertimus]

Red and BillN, you're right on the money.

Though I think the question that leads this threat is a fair one objectively, BBM is a film about two men who are homosexuals, not just two men aping the actions of homosexuality for some painful, inexplicable reasons of their own.

I'm personally surprised that more people don't realize the vicissitudes of homosexuality under a historical social policy that's hostile to it at best.

That's part of the reason I think the leads are heroes of a sort--more than just protagonists. They're struggling with a huge amount of adversity at all levels of their lives, and forced to behave unethically themselves--that's part of the insidiousness of such social policy.

Jack and Ennis are both heroes in my book, which doesn't mean they're Super Men, infallible and invulnerable and morally perfect.

[graylockV]

They were both gay, for sure.

I haven't posted yet on this particular thread so I am probably repeating an earlier thought, but for me, I knew for sure that Ennis was totally and completely gay when he asked Jack if he ever got the feeling, when he walked into a room, that people could tell - he didn't say "queer" or "gay" - but we know what he meant.  To me that was the closest acknowledgment bu Ennis of his true sexual nature.

I'll bet any closeted gay person - certainly myself included when I was young, especially - has had the feeling that, no matter if you were never called "sissy" or ever considered "fem" - that nevertheless the rest of the world could surely tell the truth about you just by looking at you.

Of course I now understand that "gaydar" exists - but straight guys especially don't have it.

I used to work in the Pentagon some years ago, and Pete Williams, now with NBC but then he was Dick Cheney's press secretary, was "outed."   It was in all the papers.  I was in an unrelated meeting at that time when this straight guy speaks up, claiming that he always new that something was different about Pete Williams.  "I can always spot 'em", he claimed, as if he had some special power..  Then he looks over in my direction and it took every bit of self control within me not to break out laughing at the stupid son of a bitch.

No, Ennis, they can't tell just by looking at you.   Maybe it would be easier if they could - then they would know how many of us there are - but things don't work that way.

[vertimus]

greylocke, I, too, use Ennis' question as absolute, irrefutable proof that he knew who and what he was. He wasn't deluded.

What else could he possibly been referring to?

And, as you say, many homosexual men have felt exactly that way, some for their entire lives, or whenever in public.

[Ironwood]

I’m way a late comer to this thread….67 pages of it at this point!  I’ll admit, I’ve just read a few and scanned others….but here’s my contribution anyway…..I hope I'm not repeating stuff:

I think the very fact the question “Are they gay or not?” is even being seriously considered is - in and of itself - a reflection of the innate homophobia/homohatred of western culture, particularly as it is here in the US.  It’s really a dumb question if you think about it (and I don’t want to offend anybody).  But, it shouldn’t need asking. I think the main reason it is asked is to help make some people comfortable with the whole “gay” issue and provide a way to dodge the full implication of these two men’s relationship.

As long as some people insist on defining gay/homosexuality in terms of overt behavior and not (as it should be) in terms of emotional attraction, we will continue to fuel the misunderstandings and misrepresentations of “gay” that are so prevalent.  …A good example of this “confusion” (between behavior and attraction) is the whole ex-gay movement which claims to convert gays to straights when the person stops displaying same-sex sexual activity and manages (even if only every once in a while) to perform heterosexually. Let me point out that I speak from not only my own experience but that of a great many other gay men – particularly those of us past 50. And I'm way past 50!

When I was Jakes and Ennis’s age (I was 20 in 1963!) ….. I was involved with a same-sex age peer in an ongoing sexual relationship. It wasn’t my first such relationship.  Growing up where we did, we didn’t have the term “gay” or any other positive way to incorporate a sexual identity (like with J&E)…we just knew and felt our mutual sexual attraction……

Then, I think I did something (gradually) that both J&E may have done – I mentally and emotionally created a divide/separation between sexual attraction and “love”…I bought into the cultural dictum (and why wouldn’t I or any other developing youngster after seeing hundreds of examples in movies, early TV and in everyday life) that “love” was something that happened only between men and women.  Stupid, I know…but I had no positive source of information, no Internet, no Will and Grace, no one with whom I could talk or get clarity - no nothing except condemnation for the sexual feelings that I harbored and a big load of Catholic guilt.  Like E&J, I knew I  “Wasn’t no queer”…problem was, I just didn’t know and couldn’t describe what I was. 

Like Ennis, I eventually turned to a woman for “love”, married and had two children.  It was a lie but one that worked for a long time till an epiphany some 24 years later. At age 47, my own “Jack” walked into my life for a very brief time to reawaken in me something I did not even realize had been put to sleep. But that’s another story………

I’ve now been with my life partner for 10 years. We live together un-accosted in a small and still very conservative city…one that a mere 12 years ago soundly defeated inclusion of gay rights into the city ordnances.  By the way…for young gay men out there who think the world comes to an end at age 30…just ain’t so and thank God! That idea is just another one of those gay myths.  There is plenty of life out there after 40 - though I doubt Ennis would have ever discovered that while living in his circumstances.

The point I’m trying to highlight in my longwinded fashion is that these two lovers had no acceptable language with which to describe themselves and what was happening.  They could neither conceive of “falling in love” with another man any more than they could have imagined being a Martian. The idea was too alien.  They felt love and lived it (to the extent they believed they could) but neither ever vocalized in direct fashion the love they held for each other.  Yes, they were “gay” - using that term in its broadest sense.  How can that be doubted?

[BillN]

greylocke, I, too, use Ennis' question as absolute, irrefutable proof that he knew who and what he was. He wasn't deluded.

What else could he possibly been referring to?

And, as you say, many homosexual men have felt exactly that way, some for their entire lives, or whenever in public.

Vertimus, excellent observation and thinking back to my time before I was out, I often wondered the same thing - could people see that I was gay?

[cyoung]

Also E takes no pleasure in having sex with his wife. It's duty like everything else in his life. He's almost relieved to not have to anymore. Besides the way E likes to have sex with A takes him back to Jack and BBM.

Just a little quibble -- he must have felt some pleasure because they ended up with two children, so I'm assuming he reached orgasm.

Also, I know the short story and movie are different in some aspects, but in the short story, Ennis says he "likes doin' it with women" but just not as much as he does with Jack.

Cara

[graylockV]

Also E takes no pleasure in having sex with his wife. It's duty like everything else in his life. He's almost relieved to not have to anymore. Besides the way E likes to have sex with A takes him back to Jack and BBM.

Just a little quibble -- he must have felt some pleasure because they ended up with two children, so I'm assuming he reached orgasm.

Also, I know the short story and movie are different in some aspects, but in the short story, Ennis says he "likes doin' it with women" but just not as much as he does with Jack.

Cara

Cara - in years past I asked similar questions of gay friends of mine who had been married and had children.  When a man is younger, say in his teens and twenties, he can usually get off with the pure physical stimulation that happens with intercourse.  With the passage of time, fantasies become more important in "completing the process."  The problem for these guys was that, once they got past forty, it just became more and more difficult to summon the thoughts necessary to fire up the equipment with a woman.  In contrast, for many of them, what had become so effortful with a woman was explosive, thrilling, exhilerating, and so on, when they were with another guy. 

So it becomes more and more difficult to "fake it" with the passage of time.  That's why I am sure Ennis felt relieved when he knew that Alma no longer "wanted his babies."

[ToolPackinMama]

They were Gay.  Gay guys can father children.  It's not like being Gay makes you infertile.

[cyoung]

They were Gay.  Gay guys can father children.  It's not like being Gay makes you infertile.

No... really? Wow! (Sorry. A bit of sarcasm there.) Just to make it clear that when I mentioned children, I was responding directly to someone's comment that Ennis "takes no pleasure in having sex with his wife." My point was that there must have been some pleasure for orgasm to occur, yes?

I have to say this: You all are aware that many reasonable, intelligent, non-homophobic people on this board and elsewhere believe that both Ennis and Jack were bisexual, but leaning further toward homosexual on the Kinsey scale, and that their main attraction was for each other rather than for their wives?

Cara

[ToolPackinMama]

They were Gay.  Gay guys can father children.  It's not like being Gay makes you infertile.

No... really? Wow! (Sorry. A bit of sarcasm there.) Just to make it clear that when I mentioned children, I was responding directly to someone's comment that Ennis "takes no pleasure in having sex with his wife." My point was that there must have been some pleasure for orgasm to occur, yes?

If your nose itches, do you scratch it?

I'm bisexual, and married to a bisexual husband.  IMHO, I know a bisexual when I see one, and Jack and Ennis are GAY.  Gay men/women are capable of heterosexual connections.  Many Gays at least try to be straight.  I know many Lesbian mothers, most of whom got their kids the old-fashioned way:  with a bottle of wine and a good friend!

[DaveinPhilly]

but basically a straight man in love with Ennis - at least that's what I inferred from the posting - never heard the interview.

Dave, I have a different interpretation on his comments. He may have been saying that the only way he could relate to Jack was to think of him as straight, that he could not understand being gay. He needed a basis for creating the character on the screen, and that was his method. From what I have read about Jake, and heard from him in interviews, he seems to be a very candid person and not the least bit ashamed of his beliefs.

No, I'm sure you're right about not being ashamed. I suppose I've mis-understood the straight remark. *blushes* - should have listened to the interview...

[vertimus]

Ironwood, I agree, though I respect those who simply can't see that this is a film about two homosexual men--their 'lack of insight' is also indicative of the manner in which our culture has manipulated and programmed people. And failed to educate them as it has failed to educate itself.

I'm never surprised when anyone anywhere from any background doesn't have much of a clue about homosexuality and bisexuality--how can we expect anyone too when the subject has been so skewered in so many different directions over the decades?

And even the so-called (by me) hardline gay movement often--not always--skewers it to fit their various social and political agendas. 

And thanks BillN, for your comments. I think all homosexual men feel that way at some time--"can people tell just by looking at me?"--"is it the way I walk, sit, talk, chew gum, dress?"

But it's not an unfounded paranoia, because sometimes people from all walks of life can and do know, by picking up signals, signs of self-consciousness, sheerly by intuition or 'a little voice in their head.' 

Personally, I find the more relaxed and comfortable with himself a homosexual male is, the less people 'can know.' It's as if there's no 'self-conscious static' to pick up out of the ether.

However, especially in the past, no one can blame homosexual men for feeling self-conscious, as well as guilty, tormented, isolated, etc.

[aceygirl]

They were Gay.  Gay guys can father children.  It's not like being Gay makes you infertile.

No... really? Wow! (Sorry. A bit of sarcasm there.) Just to make it clear that when I mentioned children, I was responding directly to someone's comment that Ennis "takes no pleasure in having sex with his wife." My point was that there must have been some pleasure for orgasm to occur, yes?

I have to say this: You all are aware that many reasonable, intelligent, non-homophobic people on this board and elsewhere believe that both Ennis and Jack were bisexual, but leaning further toward homosexual on the Kinsey scale, and that their main attraction was for each other rather than for their wives?

Cara

And, along with being reasonable, intelligent and non-homophobic, they are also NOT necessarily manipulated by society nor uneducated.

[cythera4]

And, along with being reasonable, intelligent and non-homophobic, they are also NOT necessarily manipulated by society nor uneducated.

Not sure I get the point of this.