Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[BillN]

Just my two cents, but I agree with Heath - (Without Jack Twist, I don't know that Ennis ever would have come out)  that is the feeling I got leaving the theatre.

But yes you are right, what Jake says doesn't really make sense.  Why would he go on to be with other men?? 

I'd agree with Heath but add that IMO, it was the combination of meeting Jack, being the only two people on the mountain, and finding that Ennis could start to communicate with another human being. Ennis doesn't come out in the current day sense, it is only with Jack that he is able to be who he is, everywhere else, he fits the stereotype of a Wyoming man. And I agree that what Jake said is contrary to both the short story and the movie. Jake is more thoughtfull and may have used that as his way of getting into the role, it is difficult for me to believe he really felt that way.

[Lola]

Bill I have to say I agree with everything you said   

[helen_uk]

Me too

[vertimus]

Folks, I respect your opinions, but why would Ennis then violently threaten to kill Jack--something that must have come back to haunt Ennis later--if Jack was found to have slept with other men, if he weren't totally, obsessively, passionately (i.e., sexually) in love with him after almost 20 years?

Especially when we know for a fact that Ennis did not care if Jack slept with other women? Are you all perhaps suggesting that Ennis acted as he did at the 4-year reunion because he felt it was the behavior expected of him?

Though we didn't see them participating in mutual fellatio, fellatio, analingus, etc., we have to assume they enjoyed some or all these practives in addition to anal sex. And the last can get pretty messy. These are very intimate acts. 

A very confused lonely 'straight' man might be unsure about or manipulated in his emotions, but I don''t think he would continue a vigorous sex life for decades. Don't forget that sturdy erections had to be a necessary part of Ennis' participation; we never heard Jack directly complaining about Ennis' loss of interest, loss of passion, or inability to achieve a hardon. 

I agree, BillN, about Ennis's initial attraction to Jack because Jack simply noticed Ennis was alive and was the first person, most likely, to penetrate Ennis' essential isolation. 

But if you're not at least bisexual, and thus, yes,  physically attracted to men as well as women, you don't do the things Ennis did on the mountain more than once, and you certainly don't let the other party know you want it all to continue for the rest of the summer.

Ennis could easily have said, 'Jack, I feel good with you, I think I've finally met my first friend, but that was a one time thing last night, and I regret it. I hope you won't let that stop us being friends, pal." And then see how things progressed between them.

My feeling is that Jack would have been unhappy about it but would have respected Ennis' feelings, until such time that Ennis either changed his mind, or they parted as genuine friends.

In the event that Jack was in love with Ennis and not able to cope with an unrequited love and thus wanted to end their friendship, then he could have just walked away when they came off Brokeback.

Thanks, everyone, for hearing me out.

[aevkc]

I don't think I agree with this interpretation (personally, I think Jack is gay) but Jake might have been approaching it as Jack fell in love with Ennis and then in an attempt to recreate the bond and feelings he has with Ennis he engages in these sexual relationships with other men.  Just seeking to find again what he has with Ennis.  Again, not saying I agree with it, but that might be where Jake's head was as he made the film.  And that's fine, because he did a damn good job and this movie is open to so many different interpretations and feelings.

[cyoung]

Though we didn't see them participating in mutual fellatio, fellatio, analingus, etc., we have to assume they enjoyed some or all these practives in addition to anal sex. And the last can get pretty messy. These are very intimate acts. 

Er.... just curious, why would we HAVE to assume this? We don't know what their preferred sexual activities were. It's up to us to fill all that in (no pun intended). BTW, an ignorant question perhaps and one not really related to this discussion, but wouldn't analingus be not only pretty messy but pretty dangerous, too, without some kind of barrier?

Cara

[vertimus]

aevkc, I agree that Jake did a great job. He always does; perhaps Bubble Boy was the only exception. His Donnie Darko was his first classic performance, and Jack is another; I haven't seen Jarhead, so I can't comment on that. He was also excellent in Moonlight Mile--is that the right name? Doom seems to become him.

I hope, like Nicholas Cage, who also started out doing very interesting projects, Gyllenhaal doesn't  turn into bland Hollywood Golden Boy by accepting middle-of-the-road, popcorn movies as future material. I'd much rather he go the Johnny Depp route, though a lot of Depp's actual work leaves me cold. However, wherever Jake goes, I'll keep at least one eye on him. 

Thanks.

[helen_uk]

Like I said before I believe that both of them were homosexual. 

But if Jake played it like they weren't then I think we have to commend him on his fantastic performance and say that they way he played Jack was damn near perfect.  And as for Ennis I think that Jack was his 'one shot'.  There was no way that circumstances were going to come together in such a way for him again.

I think Jake playing Jack as straight really paid off, as you really got a sense of his anguish when he went with other men who were just  Ennis substitutes, as aevkc says.



_{(Jake was excellent in Jarhead too)}

[Lola]

but Jake might have been approaching it as Jack fell in love with Ennis and then in an attempt to recreate the bond and feelings he has with Ennis he engages in these sexual relationships with other men.  Just seeking to find again what he has with Ennis. 

An excellent point, I honestly thought the same thing.  Maybe he was just looking for what he had with Ennis, what he couldn't have with Ennis anymore.

[BillN]

Folks, I respect your opinions, but why would Ennis then violently threaten to kill Jack--something that must have come back to haunt Ennis later--if Jack was found to have slept with other men, if he weren't totally, obsessively, passionately (i.e., sexually) in love with him after almost 20 years?

Vertimus, you and I agree that both of them were "gay", Jack more so because he probably had some prior experience. I think Ennis is an ususal situation because all the indicators are that he would have played the role of being straight if he had not met Jack and they spent the summer on Brokeback. To me, the mountain has a role in this story because it is the isolation from the rest of humanity that allows Ennis to start to come out of his shell. And the only time that Ennis threatens Jack is over the possibility that he might be having sex with another man, never over sex with a woman. I've thought that the "Jack, I swear" line tells us that Ennis is finally able to say, at least to himself, that he loved, and loves Jack, his final coming out to himself.

[vertimus]

Cara, analingus is potentially dangerous, and yet people do it all the time. It even has a code name on the street: tossing the salad, or tossing salad.

I think over the course of their relationship, the experienced, passionate Jack would have introduced Ennis to all the variations of male-male love, though of course we can't know that for certain. I don't go on the assumption that Jack was only looking to be anally pentrated on his trips to Mexico.

For all we know, they merely performed frottage on one another; we don't know how literally Jack meant 'high altitude fucks' when he mentioned it. For some people, 'fucking' is having almost any kind of sex, even manual manipulation, while for others it means pentration via the penis only. Look, for instance, at Bill Clinton and Monica.

Since fellatio is a hugely common among homosexual men, I would expect that was something they indulged in at least once, and much more likely, often.

Which in turn raises the question of how and where they ejeculated when and if they practiced that, which carries further very intimate weight in terms of fluids. As we know, especially pre-HIV/AIDS, many homosexual and biseuxal men do not find the ejeculate of their partners disgusting.  Often, quite the opposite.

Purely in terms of facts, we only know they indulged in anal lovemaking and holding one another, nothing more. At least from the film.

[vertimus]

BillN, enjoy your fourth viewing, my friend. I'm so happy to see the film still hovering at number 6. Oprah and the Oscar nods can only help keep it there. And ourselves, of course. I've seen it 5 times and will probably do so again. I'm beginning to be able to breathe again.

I agree that had Jack not come along, then very likely the fairly undynamic, staid Ennis would have got married and only vaguely been aware of his longings for men--he would have felt them but most likely repressed them far more than he actually does in the film.

Unless, of course, another cathartic figure had entered his life and strove to impress himself on Ennis, which seems unlikely given Ennis' environment and habits.

But Ennis still might have drank too much, ended up divorced, and found himself a gray wandering phantom, prematurely aged. The difference would be, he really wouldn't know or understand why. His mind and psyche would have worked against him, as repression does by its very nature.

I completely agree that the last line is hugely positive in many ways, despite its terrible sadness, and may represent a truly cathartic moment for Ennis. Hopefully, the future will be brighter for him and some of his emotional load will have been permanently lifted.

(I also see Ennis' agreement to stand at Junior's wedding as his re-taking his rightful place as the head of his broken family, if not fully, not literally, for all members. He's accepting his responsibility. It would have been nice had Junior said, 'Id like you to give me away,' and he agreed to; but that might have taken the sting out of the very last scene.)

That's why it's the most important line in the film for me, and why I believe it will go down in history.

Men who have a very hard time communicating their emotions, will, hopefully, in 20 years, be saying to their girlfriends or boyfriends, "Jack, I swear..." at difficult moments, and the other party will understand entirely what they're trying to signify, and peace and harmony of a kind will be established.

[SquallCloud]

I've seen the film 5 times. (I'm going with another friend tomorrow, and another this weekend) I feel that Ennis is probably only vaguely attracted to men if at all. I think that his feelings for Jack stem from the fact that Jack took an interest in him and he was fond of him. I think Jack was beautiful and sexually arousing to him but I got no indication in the book or the movie that any other man was at all interesting to him.

Jack was gay as the day is long. He obviously likes women well enough but he craves men. He craves the affection of men and he goes trolling for it when he is depressed and dejected. He could have easily found a female hooker but he didn't wan tthat. He wanted a man.

[sunspot]

I feel that Ennis is probably only vaguely attracted to men if at all.

But that doesn't make any sense.  If Ennis is so attracted to women, why does he screw his wife from behind (in the butt, according to the short story) and why does he brush off Cassie, a beautiful woman who's obviously over the moon in love with him?

My take is that Ennis is actually *less* sexually attracted to women than Jack is - he's just too ashamed and afraid to admit it, and keeps that desire tightly bottled up to compensate.  He's also fallen hopelessly in love with Jack Twist on top of that sexual attraction - and what gay man wouldn't fall in love with a creature as sweet and as beautiful as Jake Gyllenhaal?  Again though, he keeps that love tightly bottled up, and Jack has to make do on what little of that light shines thru the fortress Ennis places around his heart.  There's a great passage in the book that's nicely echoed in the film, where Jack looks back at the campfire from up on the hill at night, with Ennis as a tiny spark in the blackness.  Jack can see that tiny spark in the darkness, and Jack is a dreamer.  The promise of that spark is enough to keep Jack with Ennis for nearly 20 years.

On those rare occasions when something breaks thru his composure, rips a hole in that fortress, Ennis goes absolutely apeshit.  He practically rapes Jack that first night in the tent.  He pukes his guts out and rams his fist into a wall when they part.  The ultimate happens during their reunion after 4 years though, when he slams Jack into a wall and ravishes him in broad daylight in a scene that's hotter than any gay porno ever filmed.

This is not the behavior of a man who is remotely straight.  This is more like a drowning man coming up for air.  Ennis is gay as a Christmas tree – he just doesn't act anything like our (or his) preconceived notions of what a gay man should act like.

And here's a newsflash – neither do at least half the gay men in America.

Ennis self-identifies as straight – "I ain't no queer."  In his mind maybe he's convinced himself of that.  But in those few moments when we see the intention of his heart, we see that intention is as queer as queer can get.

[zachUK]

Cara, analingus is potentially dangerous, and yet people do it all the time. It even has a code name on the street: tossing the salad, or tossing salad.

Just as an aside, the term 'tossing the salad' is not in common use ... analingus is commonly known as rimming. 

This is not the behavior of a man who is remotely straight.  This is more like a drowning man coming up for air.  Ennis is gay as a Christmas tree – he just doesn't act anything like our (or his) preconceived notions of what a gay man should act like.

Ennis self-identifies as straight – "I ain't no queer."  In his mind maybe he's convinced himself of that.  But in those few moments when we see the intention of his heart, we see that intention is as queer as queer can get.

I agree with this analysis completely.  I'll say it again (with a slight twist) ... if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, is it a beaver just because the duck says so?