Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[Paul029]

And in no doubt, Lyle and Mike.

Jess, it’s not a football match, with onlookers on the sidelines barracking for their particular team. 

It’s a discussion—and I appreciate both yourself and Desecra taking the time to offer your thoughts to a thread newcomer* in a civilised and informative manner. 

* and one who’s yet to present his thoughts on any of the four available options.

[Desecra]

Paul, I'll try to answer your posts without quoting. 

I don't think Ennis was playing mindgames at all.   He did seem accepting on Brokeback, but because he genuinely didn't know what was going on (as he explains four years later).   (If anything, Jack was the one playing mindgames by playing along with Ennis and pretending he didn't know either!   But I don't think either were really playing mind games).   The reason he didn't know what was going on was because he avoided anything which would have told him something was wrong (i.e. that he was attracted to Jack).   Jack tells us this (in the DE thoughts) and we see it in action (in the FNIT).   

If you replace "he held" with "he was attracted to" or "he desired", I think the sentence is more clear: "he would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he was attracted to".  From Jack's point of view, I suppose "held" works better.  But I think that's the meaning of "that it was Jack, etc.".  It's nothing to do with Ennis not knowing that Jack was Jack or not knowing that Jack was a man. 

In the DE itself, I don't think Ennis is avoiding anything.   It's "artless".   Ennis came up behind Jack and embraced him in a natural way, and it was their happiest moment.   Despite the fact that back then, Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face.    In other words, I don't think Jack is looking back and wishing he'd turned around.    It's just that when he thinks of the DE, he's reminded of Ennis's reluctance on the mountain (which resulted in Jack keeping quiet, stealing the shirt, and yearning for four years).   But that knowledge doesn't mar the memory of the DE itself. 

[Desecra]

No apology needed, Des. I got your drift.
Which, of course, hinges on your belief that Ennis wouldn’t embrace f2f in the first place.   

I just have to say ... it's not my belief  - it's something that's in the story.  I didn't come to the story believing that.  I was shocked when I found it out!  (And a little taken aback that the film changed that aspect.)

[Paul029]

Paul, I'll try to answer your posts without quoting. 

Yes, they do get pretty complicated at times.   

I don't think Ennis was playing mindgames at all.   He did seem accepting on Brokeback, but because he genuinely didn't know what was going on (as he explains four years later).   (If anything, Jack was the one playing mindgames by playing along with Ennis and pretending he didn't know either!   But I don't think either were really playing mind games).   The reason he didn't know what was going on was because he avoided anything which would have told him something was wrong (i.e. that he was attracted to Jack).   Jack tells us this (in the DE thoughts) and we see it in action (in the FNIT).   

If you replace "he held" with "he was attracted to" or "he desired", I think the sentence is more clear: "he would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he was attracted to".  From Jack's point of view, I suppose "held" works better.  But I think that's the meaning of "that it was Jack, etc.".  It's nothing to do with Ennis not knowing that Jack was Jack or not knowing that Jack was a man. 

In the DE itself, I don't think Ennis is avoiding anything.   It's "artless".   Ennis came up behind Jack and embraced him in a natural way, and it was their happiest moment. 

So far, it's excellent. 

Despite the fact that back then, Ennis wouldn't embrace face to face.    In other words, I don't think Jack is looking back and wishing he'd turned around.    It's just that when he thinks of the DE, he's reminded of Ennis's reluctance on the mountain (which resulted in Jack keeping quiet, stealing the shirt, and yearning for four years).   But that knowledge doesn't mar the memory of the DE itself. 

It gets a bit muddy for me here, though... 

(Thinks about it.)

I don't know, but you seem to be hinting that Proulx was being oblique, or even metaphorical, rather than literal.

If so, it'd explain a lot:

That the "face to face" business is her way of saying that Jack interprets what is actual (the "positional" embrace he remembers) in a sophisticated (i.e. Non-Jack) way: it represents Ennis's "mountain reluctance" regarding his attraction to Jack.

In other words, the physical positioning in the DE is a bit of a red herring.

That'd explain your choice of "wouldn't," above, yes?

[Lyle (Mooska)]

* and one who’s yet to present his thoughts on any of the four available options.

What are you waiting for?

[Desecra]

Paul, I think the physical positioning is a red herring only in the sense that it's not the real issue.   The physical thing was temporary, and was resolved when they next met.  

I think Jack is thinking fairly literally.   They didn't get much farther  - on the mountain, Ennis's avoidance was physical, but later it was emotional (for lack of a better word).  Although I can see another metaphorical meaning, I think that what Jack is "saying" is quite straightforward.  

I don't think the physical positioning of the DE was a problem during the DE, or later.  The DE isn't marred.  I do think that Jack can't remember the DE without remembering what else was happening on the mountain, and the thing that the DE seems to remind him of is Ennis's physical avoidance (probably because the positioning of the DE echos that).    It could have been something else.   Jack could have remembered that Ennis wouldn't then admit what he felt for him (for example).   That would mean that Jack was disappointed that Ennis didn't spit it out during the DE itself, but just that the DE reminded him of Ennis's silence.  But Annie Proulx has chosen Ennis's physical avoidance to be the thing Jack felt might have marred his memory (but didn't).  I think that works well, because it's obvious how the hug from behind would remind Jack of that.  I don't think it's that Jack chooses the positioning to represent the problem in any sophisticated way, but that it reminds him of the problem.  (But yes, it does end up representing it, I suppose - there are maybe two big meanings in that DE memory, same as there are with the shirts).  

[atruant]

yes, they were gay.

Agree!

[Paul029]

Paul, I think the physical positioning is a red herring only in the sense that it's not the real issue.   The physical thing was temporary, and was resolved when they next met.  

I think Jack is thinking fairly literally.   They didn't get much farther  - on the mountain, Ennis's avoidance was physical, but later it was emotional (for lack of a better word).  Although I can see another metaphorical meaning, I think that what Jack is "saying" is quite straightforward.  

I don't think the physical positioning of the DE was a problem during the DE, or later.  The DE isn't marred.  I do think that Jack can't remember the DE without remembering what else was happening on the mountain, and the thing that the DE seems to remind him of is Ennis's physical avoidance (probably because the positioning of the DE echos that).    It could have been something else.   Jack could have remembered that Ennis wouldn't then admit what he felt for him (for example).   That would mean that Jack was disappointed that Ennis didn't spit it out during the DE itself, but just that the DE reminded him of Ennis's silence.  But Annie Proulx has chosen Ennis's physical avoidance to be the thing Jack felt might have marred his memory (but didn't).  I think that works well, because it's obvious how the hug from behind would remind Jack of that.  I don't think it's that Jack chooses the positioning to represent the problem in any sophisticated way, but that it reminds him of the problem.  (But yes, it does end up representing it, I suppose - there are maybe two big meanings in that DE memory, same as there are with the shirts).  

I think what you’ve said above just about sums it up for me now, Des—and thank you.
But while we still don’t know what Ennis thought about the embrace, we do have some non-verbal clues to indicate that he knows who he’s holding, and what he feels about him.

As far as he’s concerned, there’s no “avoidance” (yet), and so the idyll continues....

[Desecra]

As far as he's concerned .....  I don't think Ennis knows he's avoiding anything (any more than a straight guy would).  That's the "point" of the avoidance.  Because he's avoiding anything that would tell him something was wrong, he only has a strange feeling of things being mixed.   There's no mutilated sheep scene, no riding off after the FNIT, no brooding, no agreement with Jack on the mountainside.  "Nothing seemed wrong".  Because he avoided things before they felt wrong. 

In the DE, in particular, I don't think there's any avoidance on Ennis's part, and I don't even think that Jack thinks there is.  Its described as "artless".  Of course Ennis knows who he's holding - why wouldn't he?  At the moment he is openly expressing what he feels for Jack - even if he thinks it's as a friend.  It never happens again because that situation can't happen again - a situation where Ennis believes it's platonic love (and therefore not "wrong") and believes that Jack is straight (and hasn't yet questioned his own sexuality). 

At that point on the mountain, I think Ennis believes both of them are straight.   I think Jack knows that he's not exactly straight, but he thinks Ennis is probably straight.    I think that's one of the reasons Jack doesn't ask Ennis up to LF at the end of the summer, or even suggest they look for work together.   He can only see their thing happening on Brokeback (it wouldn't be likely to happen anywhere less isolated for a straight guy).    He can only think of asking if Ennis is going to do it again next year.   

I imagine that after the years pass and his son is born, he's reminded of the DE in particular, the moment that showed him that there was something more going on. 

[Paul029]

As far as he's concerned .....  I don't think Ennis knows he's avoiding anything (any more than a straight guy would).  That's the "point" of the avoidance.  Because he's avoiding anything that would tell him something was wrong, he only has a strange feeling of things being mixed.   There's no mutilated sheep scene, no riding off after the FNIT, no brooding, no agreement with Jack on the mountainside.  "Nothing seemed wrong".  Because he avoided things before they felt wrong. 

I’m uncertain whether he’s “avoiding” anything, because “avoidance” indicates an awareness (i.e. knowledge, whether conscious/subconscious, or intuited) that there exists something to be avoided in the first place.

His awareness that there’s something to be avoided starts to emerge during the Motel sequence. Prior to the reunion postcard he has no idea that Jack will re-enter his life.

And there is an “agreement” with Jack, although I wouldn’t have put it quite like that. It appears to be more a mutual statement of fact, certainly on Ennis’s side (we’ve been told a bit more about Jack, though—his “riding of bulls”—of which Ennis is unaware).

In the DE, in particular, I don't think there's any avoidance on Ennis's part, and I don't even think that Jack thinks there is.  Its described as "artless".  Of course Ennis knows who he's holding - why wouldn't he?  At the moment he is openly expressing what he feels for Jack - even if he thinks it's as a friend.  It never happens again because that situation can't happen again - a situation where Ennis believes it's platonic love (and therefore not "wrong") and believes that Jack is straight (and hasn't yet questioned his own sexuality). 

I agree, except that their relationshop is hardly platonic, Des. Could you clarify?

At that point on the mountain, I think Ennis believes both of them are straight.   I think Jack knows that he's not exactly straight, but he thinks Ennis is probably straight.    I think that's one of the reasons Jack doesn't ask Ennis up to LF at the end of the summer, or even suggest they look for work together.   He can only see their thing happening on Brokeback (it wouldn't be likely to happen anywhere less isolated for a straight guy).    He can only think of asking if Ennis is going to do it again next year. 

I agree with this, too, but ask why you say that Ennis believes both of them are straight (leaving Jack out of it for the moment)?

Is there a difference between belief and knowledge? (We get a similar issue with the Lureen phone call business, where Ennis “knows,” how Jack died, despite what he’s being told...)
Are you saying that while he "believes" he's straight, he "knows" he's not?" Or ... what? 

I imagine that after the years pass and his son is born, he's reminded of the DE in particular, the moment that showed him that there was something more going on. 

You're suggesting that the DE started to "solidify in his memory" as early as, say, 1964?
I hadn't thought it would have started so early. Good point. 

[Desecra]

I’m uncertain whether he’s “avoiding” anything, because “avoidance” indicates an awareness (i.e. knowledge, whether conscious/subconscious, or intuited) that there exists something to be avoided in the first place.

His awareness that there’s something to be avoided starts to emerge during the Motel sequence. Prior to the reunion postcard he has no idea that Jack will re-enter his life.

I agree about the lack of awareness.  I would still call it avoidance, though - maybe you have a better word.   

It's possible that there was some awareness that he was avoiding things (i.e. he knew that he wouldn't do x, y, z, even though his initial avoidance was instinctual).   But I don't think he was aware of why he was avoiding things.   He probably would have thought he was avoiding things because "I'm not no queer".   I'd say he was avoiding things because he didn't want to know he desired Jack.

And there is an “agreement” with Jack, although I wouldn’t have put it quite like that. It appears to be more a mutual statement of fact, certainly on Ennis’s side (we’ve been told a bit more about Jack, though—his “riding of bulls”—of which Ennis is unaware).

I think he believes it as fact, but I don't think it's an agreement in the way it is in the film.  It happens during sex, so I think it most likely that Jack attempted something that was a bit too close to the bone, and Ennis asserted his heterosexuality.   (I'd guess at a kiss, but that's an unpopular idea.  It could have been something else.)   In that scenario it's maybe more of a warning to Jack, rather than an agreement.   It's the only thing Ennis says on the mountain about the sex or during the sex.   Jack jumps in with the rest. 

I agree, except that their relationshop is hardly platonic, Des. Could you clarify?

I think that Ennis is able to think of Jack as the companion where none was expected, the friend who makes him feel he could paw the white out of the moon, and (because he avoids anything that would tell him they were having sex out of mutual attraction instead of helping out with sexual relief) not his lover.    I don't think Ennis understands his feelings for Jack. Nor does he try to or want to understand his feelings for Jack.  I think he's pointedly avoiding knowing that he has sexual feelings for Jack.  But he's OK with those feelings of love, caring, protectiveness, etc. in the DE, because they feel like something a man could feel for his best friend. 

I agree with this, too, but ask why you say that Ennis believes both of them are straight (leaving Jack out of it for the moment)?

Is there a difference between belief and knowledge? (We get a similar issue with the Lureen phone call business, where Ennis “knows,” how Jack died, despite what he’s being told...)
Are you saying that while he "believes" he's straight, he "knows" he's not?" Or ... what? 

I think he just doesn't question their sexuality, and of course, they're straight by default (to him).   ( I don't think he would have befriended somebody he thought of as gay, in the way that he befriended Jack.)   Jack seems to be aware that he should hide his sexuality (again, probably a default position for him until a guy gave him a clue), and he doesn't give too much away.  I often think that even Jack's first advance was fortunate (and possibly meant to be that way) in that it conceivably fit with a straight guy wanting sexual relief, rather than a gay guy wanting to touch his friend.   

In the case of the phone call and later at LF, I'd say that Ennis believes Jack was murdered because that's what his experience has told him will happen.   He wasn't there, obviously.   In Jack's case, he had direct knowledge, because he was there and able to observe Ennis's behaviour.   

You're suggesting that the DE started to "solidify in his memory" as early as, say, 1964?
I hadn't thought it would have started so early. Good point. 

I've always wondered when it happened, but I think it could have been quite early on.  I haven't managed to come to any firm conclusions .   By 1967 Jack seemed to have some sort of a clue that it meant a lot to Ennis, because he sends the postcard, and also has such a strong reaction to "you bet" (planning for them to live together).  It's quite a contrast to him going off at the end of the summer without suggesting a single way that they could continue, apart from doing the same thing next year.  I think the difference must be that his view of his memory has changed somehow.  Not that the memory has changed, of course, but that he gives it a significance.  I think that might be the "solidifying" as the single happy moment for both of them.

At that point, of course, he must have expected it to happen again.

[janjo]

Some very perceptive questioning here, Paul.

[fofol]

I agree about the lack of awareness.  I would still call it avoidance, though - maybe you have a better word.   

It's possible that there was some awareness that he was avoiding things (i.e. he knew that he wouldn't do x, y, z, even though his initial avoidance was instinctual).   But I don't think he was aware of why he was avoiding things.   He probably would have thought he was avoiding things because "I'm not no queer".   I'd say he was avoiding things because he didn't want to know he desired Jack.

I think he believes it as fact, but I don't think it's an agreement in the way it is in the film.  It happens during sex, so I think it most likely that Jack attempted something that was a bit too close to the bone, and Ennis asserted his heterosexuality.   (I'd guess at a kiss, but that's an unpopular idea.  It could have been something else.)   In that scenario it's maybe more of a warning to Jack, rather than an agreement.   It's the only thing Ennis says on the mountain about the sex or during the sex.   Jack jumps in with the rest. 

I think that Ennis is able to think of Jack as the companion where none was expected, the friend who makes him feel he could paw the white out of the moon, and (because he avoids anything that would tell him they were having sex out of mutual attraction instead of helping out with sexual relief) not his lover.    I don't think Ennis understands his feelings for Jack. Nor does he try to or want to understand his feelings for Jack.  I think he's pointedly avoiding knowing that he has sexual feelings for Jack.  But he's OK with those feelings of love, caring, protectiveness, etc. in the DE, because they feel like something a man could feel for his best friend. 
I think he just doesn't question their sexuality, and of course, they're straight by default (to him).   ( I don't think he would have befriended somebody he thought of as gay, in the way that he befriended Jack.)   Jack seems to be aware that he should hide his sexuality (again, probably a default position for him until a guy gave him a clue), and he doesn't give too much away.  I often think that even Jack's first advance was fortunate (and possibly meant to be that way) in that it conceivably fit with a straight guy wanting sexual relief, rather than a gay guy wanting to touch his friend.   

In the case of the phone call and later at LF, I'd say that Ennis believes Jack was murdered because that's what his experience has told him will happen.   He wasn't there, obviously.   In Jack's case, he had direct knowledge, because he was there and able to observe Ennis's behaviour.   

I've always wondered when it happened, but I think it could have been quite early on.  I haven't managed to come to any firm conclusions .   By 1967 Jack seemed to have some sort of a clue that it meant a lot to Ennis, because he sends the postcard, and also has such a strong reaction to "you bet" (planning for them to live together).  It's quite a contrast to him going off at the end of the summer without suggesting a single way that they could continue, apart from doing the same thing next year.  I think the difference must be that his view of his memory has changed somehow.  Not that the memory has changed, of course, but that he gives it a significance.  I think that might be the "solidifying" as the single happy moment for both of them.

At that point, of course, he must have expected it to happen again.

   If we only read the story, we clearly see that Ennis isn't avoiding Jack, and if we only see the film, we have to notice that several times Ennis has questions for Jack about their relationship - this happen to other people? what do they do?
IOW, the only thing Ennis is avoiding is publicity about their 'thing.'
   Ennis isn't stupid, but he doesn't have any exposure to what happens to guys who are together, or even what it's called when two guys are in love with one another.  All he knows of love are getting married, his girls and his horses, and neither Jack nor Ennis's feelings for Jack fit neatly into any of those categories.  The other problem he has with the two of them is the very real danger of either of them or both being tortured and/or murdered: Ennis's first response to Jack'
s death is the assumption that he was murdered for being 'a boy like that.'

I work with a man who is in complete denial of his homosexuality: this poor bastard is so f'ed-up that people who don't know him but see him around the campus assume he's gay, but he insists that he isn't.  He boxed semi-pro, taught boxing, and did two enlistments as a paratroop, all in some wild-eyed, blind attempt to be 'a real man.'  He also was the passive partner in a same-sex relationship (I've wondered if he thought that sex roles in a same-sex relationship were blocked as either/or).  His partner in this relationship tells me how weird he was: after he'd been penetrated and they were done, he would occasionally turn to the man and demand, "How'd you like that, you f'ing faggot?"  He's done some pretty nasty things to me because he had to look at Ennis and Jack when I was in the Forum at work, and always assumed that I could only be talking about arranging for sex or gossiping about RL gay sex.  As I said, poor bastard.  What a waste of everyone's time.  Ennis, OTOH, knows who he wants and where he feels free to have it on with him...

[janjo]

It is appalling the way straight people assume that they have sex but also have a life which is about so much more, but assume that gay people are obsessed with sex and that there is nothing more to them, they have no other interests in life at all.
Just another way of making "us and them" I suppose.

[Paul029]

Some very perceptive questioning here, Paul.

Thank you sincerely, Jess.

I’m glad you didn’t think I was being an “agent provocateur,” intent on inciting controversy.

Looking at the details can be more informative than looking only at the bold strokes.