Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[Lyle (Mooska)]

Actually, it takes place in Hartford, Connecticut. Although the train station they shoot is, I believe, on one of the SEPTA lines in Southwestern, PA.

When I said NY, doesn't he work in New York?  Or am I just assuming that in
some Mad Men sort of way? The house they used for filming is in New Jersey.

[fofol]

In my mind neither heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual are the lowest common denominator.
They are all just different variations of completely normal, (whatever that is).

   'Completely normal' sexuality is reaching out to another human being because your heart tells you you must.  The object of your affections is what makes your sexuality definable in Kinsey's sliding scale, and that scale only has as much meaning or value to you as you allow.  The personal turmoil about others' attitudes concerning who you are having sex with matters only as much as you grant believabilty, worth and power to others' opinions about you.  Cowboy up!

[garyd]

When I said NY, doesn't he work in New York?  Or am I just assuming that in
some Mad Men sort of way? The house they used for filming is in New Jersey.

Yes, Frank works for an advertising agency in New York City.  He commutes to his home in CT.

[Desecra]

Speaking of discrimination, one quick  rhetorical question regarding 'denial'  and reverse sexual prejudice, and then I'll leave you and the other dear hearts to be at peace..

 If an exclusively straight man one day tumbles and has a long affair with another guy, from then on he is regarded as "gay" and any claims that he is straight are met with disbelief or disdain; charges that he must have "always been gay" and that the man is "in denial" of his homosexuality.

HOWEVER,  if an exclusively gay man one day tumbles and has an affair with a woman, sorry for him: NO force in Heaven or on earth can take away the gay and render him 'straight'; and it will NEVER be claimed that simply because he had an affair with a female therefore he "must have ALWAYS been straight;" and no one will ever insist that he is "in denial" of his 'heterosexuality.'

Heuristically speaking, "Once gay, Always gay" --You can never put down the 'gay' and just walk away...

So, I still wonder, how did "gay" get to be the 'lowest common denominator'..?'


Sala'am!
Peace, out.

-Az

In real life, I'm quite happy for people to define themselves the way they want.  I consider myself straight, because I'm pretty much only attracted to men.   It looks like Jess would consider me bisexual as I've dated a girl, and that's fine by me too.  I (personally) wouldn't say that somebody has to be at an extreme of the scale to be gay or straight - for me, a strong preference for one sex over the other is enough.    You could say that anyone who isn't at 0% or 100% on the scale is bisexual, which would make most of us bi.   Or you could say that anyone with a preference for one sex is gay or straight, which would make very few bi.  

In your example, the guy could be largely straight, with a tendency to be bi which doesn't surface until the right guy and the right circumstances (which I think is what you're seeing with Ennis).  I'm happy with that in real life, and no, I wouldn't assume that everybody who develops a same sex attraction later in life has been fighting against it and "in denial" up until that point.    But in the story, we're given much more information about Ennis than that he's a hitherto apparently straight guy who fell for another man, and all the information we're given points to him being gay and fighting against it.

I just want to make that bit clear - I'm going by what we're told in the story, not generalising.  (At the same time, I would not want to stop you or anybody taking what they want from the story, or seeing it as relevant to their own experience).  

I'll just point out, though, that your two situations aren't exactly the same, just because they do ignore societal pressures.   It isn't a level playing field, as they say.   In both of your examples the guy could just be mainly straight, or mainly gay, or bi, but it's less likely that a guy would live as gay because he couldn't accept being straight than vice versa.  

[Lyle (Mooska)]

I'll just point out, though, that your two situations aren't exactly the same, just because
they do ignore societal pressures.   It isn't a level playing field, as they say.  In both of your
examples the guy could just be mainly straight, or mainly gay, or bi, but it's less likely that a
guy would live as gay because he couldn't accept being straight than vice versa.

This is what I was thinking when I read the post.

[Sandy]

Yes, Frank works for an advertising agency in New York City.  He commutes to his home in CT.

Are you sure? I was under the impression he worked in the insurance industry in Hartford, close enough to let his wife bring dinner from home. Anyone have a subscription to imdb-pro?

Update: It was shot in New Jersey to represent Hartford, Connecticut. See what the cinematographer says: http://www.theasc.com/magazine/dec02/far/page2.html  Note the following: Lachman: We shot it in New Jersey, which was standing in for Hartford, Connecticut.

Modified to provide extra info.

[garyd]

Are you sure? I was under the impression he worked in the insurance industry in Hartford, close enough to let his wife bring dinner from home. Anyone have a subscription to imdb-pro?

Nah, Sandy, I can't say that I am sure. I did not research before I posted nor have I yet to do so.  I know Frank works for some sort of company that does television advertising and I guess I just assumed the office would be in NYC.  This would also follow the sort of 1950's genre that Sirk Haynes is going for with the suburban "American Dream" East Coast lifestyle.  Mom at home, Dad commuting into the city.  But, as I say, I may be assuming too much. Don't have "Pro" but will see if I can find anything definitive.

[garyd]

yup, in the script Cathy takes dinner to him and she sure as the devil isn't going to lug dinner all the way into NYC on the train so his office must be local.

There is also some "office' dialogue discussing how "New York" is slashing budgets so I guess the headquarters of "Megatech" are in NYC and Frank works at a satellite office in Ct.

[AZ.bbm]

Stan, it would be interesting (if you were happy to do so, of course) if you did write an account of how Brokeback, and the forum, affected you - and continues to affect you.  You would have a sympathetic audience.

That's a great idea, Sara! -Thanks!

[royandronnie]

Ennis never questioned his own sexuality, always assumed that he was straight. When he says, I like doing it with women and everything...we have little choice but to believe him

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here: but, Ennis sure DID question his own sexuality: "You know, I was sittin up here all that time tryin a figure out if I was--?" He did decide he wasn't, and it's up to the reader if his conclusion is correct or not. You're on shakier ground with your second sentence, I'm afraid: "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H, ain't nothin like this." That sounds like whether it's anal sex or Jack he likes doin it with, he likes it better than sex with women. A lot better.

[AZ.bbm]

Morning, Charlotte! 

It does seems that Ennis is questioning his sexuality, doesn't it?!
 But I think that Ennis' idle comment about sittin up here all that time trying to figure out if he was queer -- he couldn't even bring himself to say it -- was just hyperbole,  as was his claim to have wrung it out a hunderd times..  Ennis was hardly one to figure out things; he generally went with the flow.



2. We don't really know why Ennis considered having sex with Jack so different from having sex with women. We presume that from his  exclamation (and 'subtext' as Lyle puts it) he meant to say that sex with Jack was 'categorically superior.' -But is that really the case for Ennis? - Maybe, we don't know.

Another poster pointed out that by the time of the reunion Ennis had only had sex with one woman, his wife, and only one man, Jack (as far as we know), he being Ennis' preeminent sexual experience and thereby probably the most profound or indelible one of his life. Jack 'spoiled' Ennis, you might say; however, you could argue that Ennis must have had some homosexual inclinations or else he would not have participated in sex with Jack, at all (unless of course he was under duress).


Earlier I mentioned that Ennis was mimicking the behavior of the animals he'd grown up around on the ranches. The sex would be full-throttle, quick, rough, wordless, rear-entry... This mode of sex would seem to perfectly fit Ennis' introverted persona. Even the SS narrator found the lack of communication between them re the sex to be perplexing.

I know that men and women can actually prefer rear-entry sex, for various reasons. But I don't think we can determine their sexual orientation via their preference for rear-entry sex.
And I agree with the other posters who insist that this particular preference in Ennis should not be taken out of the context of his life and viewed in isolation.

 

[janjo]

2. We don't really know why Ennis considered having sex with Jack so different from having sex with women. We presume that from his  exclamation (and 'subtext' as Lyle puts it) he meant to say that sex with Jack was 'categorically superior.' -But is that really the case for Ennis? - Maybe, we don't know.
 

Forgive me for jumping in here, but doesn't Ennis prove that he finds sex with Jack more satisfying than sex with Alma by his actions?
Ennis has sex with Jack from the time he first meets him until the end of Jack's life, however infrequently they meet up, it does continue for twenty years, and even after that Ennis' sex life, such as it was, consists of his erotic dreams about Jack.

He stops having sex with Alma quite early on in their marriage, and actively discourages her advances by "rolling to the wall "and sleeping.

If "action is plot," then it is quite clear where his preferences lie, even without his spoken declarations.

[AZ.bbm]

The film didn't show Ennis rolling over to the wall, etc.
From the film I was unable to get a handle on exactly how long Ennis and Alma's sex life persisted across their nine years of marriage.

It seems reasonable that Ennis was not all that interested in sex after the reunion, Jack having turned his head... But for all the movie audiences know, Ennis and his wife engaged in sexual behavior right up until the night before the divorce, sometime before Alma rebuffed him for not using contraceptives...

Then too, Ennis only had HAF's with Jack but a couple-three times a year...  (I know, from some folks that alone would be sufficient evidence.)

[janjo]

But Ennis del Mar is Annie Proulx's character, she invented him, and that is what she said he did.

[Lyle (Mooska)]

yup, in the script Cathy takes dinner to him and she sure as the devil isn't going to lug dinner all the way into NYC on the train so his office must be local.

There is also some "office' dialogue discussing how "New York" is slashing budgets so I guess the headquarters of "Megatech" are in NYC and Frank works at a satellite office in Ct.

SIDEBAR:  I looked in the script and it says his office is "a Hartford Branch of Magnavox."
(I guess they changed it to Magnatech later on.)

I have not read the whole thing, but I also found some interesting tidbits (like it says that when
Cathy discovers Frank with a man in his office that he is blond, shirtless and fondling him--it wasn't
filmed that way!) extended scenes and a lengthy enough voice-over by Cathy at the end of the film,
which I believe was rightly omitted.