Were they gay? (Jack & Ennis)

[ToolPackinMama]

Speaking as a savvy old bisexual dame, bisexuals love both sexes more or less equally well.

I don't think that's necessarily true, at least if you go by the Kinsey scale, where the sexuality is on a scale, a continnuum. You can be bisexual but lean more toward being gay, or bisexual but lean more toward being straight. Being bisexual doesn't have to mean "loving both sexes equally well."

Cara

FWIW, I said MORE OR LESS EQUALLY WELL.  Of course individuals vary.

[Uclapeterg]

And yes even the straight requires a definition.  For example IF Jack and Ennis had got drunk and had sex that first night in the tent and got up the next day and had NEVER been together again, would that make them still straight?

HELL NO.

[Uclapeterg]

I even challenged some of'em on it and they were powerful upset, but ya know what? Those who were so upset classify themselves as gay today. 

Did you ever consider that they felt forced to make a choice one way or another because neither straight nor gay people seem comfortable with "shades of grey"?

I actually think MORE people would be bisexual if they didn't feel cultural pressure to identify as the binary straight/gay.

Cara

I personally think there is less pressure to be a bi guy than a gay guy.

[Uclapeterg]

Speaking as a savvy old bisexual dame, bisexuals love both sexes more or less equally well. 

I don't think that's necessarily true, at least if you go by the Kinsey scale, where the sexuality is on a scale, a continnuum. You can be bisexual but lean more toward being gay, or bisexual but lean more toward being straight. Being bisexual doesn't have to mean "loving both sexes equally well."

Cara

What is gay "enough" to be classified as being GAY? 

[gattaca]

I'm firmly in Kinsey's camp here, in spite of what many "modern day" psychologist believe - he got that one correct. We ALL operate on a "continnuum" of sexuality ranging from hetero to homo with varying shades of grey between and our preferences can vary over time and circumstances!

Here's a link --> http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/ak-hhscale.html

Kinsey's scale ran from 0 <--> 6
0                                                                        6
heterosexual   <--->  bisexual    <----->  homoosexual

    0- Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual
    1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
    2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
    3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual
    4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
    5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
    6- Exclusively homosexual

While I believe that Jack and Ennis were "forced" into marriages by society's need for confirmance, and perhaps their desire for a family,  I believe Ennis was in the "4-5" range (but deeply repressed) and Jack was more of a 5-6 based on his actions over their 20+ year relationship (seeking out other men, ...)

Also, if you really consider distributions of poplulations and you accept Kinsey's assertion that 10% of the population is homosexual, I believe that the next largest group is "bi" and the largest group is "hetero".  So in my mind, a distribution should look something like 10% gay - 20% bi - 70% hetero - making many more people bi than they are likely willing to omit as the two extremes  both think that bi folks are all "confused.

Vincent

[cyoung]

What is gay "enough" to be classified as being GAY? 

Which brings this to mind:

If your great-great-great-grandfather was black, are you black or white? Both?

Labels easily begin to seem absurd.

Cara

[ToolPackinMama]

::sigh::

I am bisexual, and married to a bisexual husband.  We honestly love each other, and our marriage is our primary love relationship.

I saw the movie with my hubby, and he agreed with me that it's a GAY cowboy movie, not a BISEXUAL cowboy movie. We both agreed that Ennis and Jack's relationship with each other was obviously their primary love relationship, and also that their relationships with women were half-hearted.

When a man actually loves a woman, you can tell.  There are clear signs.  There also are clear signs when a man's love for his woman is half-hearted, tepid, or just plain not 100% all there.

We never once saw either Ennis nor Jack kiss their wives the way that they kissed each other.  Not once.

We aren't shown how Ennis and Alma courted, but we did see Ennis post-divorce with a new woman, and she was the one who initiated it, and did all of the work.

We saw how Jack got together with Laureen:  she initiated it, and did all of the work.

IMHO, both Ennis and Jack got married because the women came after them and dragged them to the altar by their hair.

Jack and Ennis with each other are obviously equally enthusiastic about each other.  That's made obvious in the reunion scene.

[Caroline]

But part of the story is that Ennis did love Alma very much.... he just couldn't fathom the same passion as what he had with Jack... the toboggan scene with Alma is telling, he would have loved to have been as "rough" with her as he was with Jack... but he couldn't because ALma was well, a woman... he tries to "wrestle with her" but is reduced to gently putting snow on her head.. as they wrestle in the snow... But I think that he loved her very much, but was SO conflicted in the passion that he felt for Jack.. His tears  with the divorce scene is very telling, he is devastated that he has lost her and the girls.. another moment of repressed tears and emotion that we see from him... it does not mean that he did not love her, he just didn't have the same amount of passion for her as he did for Jack...

[ToolPackinMama]

But part of the story is that Ennis did love Alma very much.... he just couldn't fathom the same passion as what he had with Jack...

No duh.  I loved my mommy very much, but I don't have the same passion for her as I do for my hubby.

[Caroline]

his love for Alma did not have anything to do with "mommy love" he loved her very much as his wife.. alot different I think...

[kappadappa]

his love for Alma did not have anything to do with "mommy love" he loved her very much as his wife.. alot different I think...

Yes, it seems clear that he loved Alma on some level.  But this forum is (supposedly) discussing sexuality.  You can love someone very much but not necessarily want to have sex with them.

It seems like most of the disagreement within this forum centers around the definition of 'bisexual'.  Does 'bisexual' mean that one is equally attracted to both sexes?  Or can you define someone as 'bisexual' if they are totally turned on by one sex and might incidentally find the other sex attractive?

Personally, to me, it seems disingenuous to call someone bisexual unless they are somewhat equally attracted to both sexes.  Otherwise, it would be like calling myself bilingual because I speak English fluently and can also say Hello in Italian.  Truly bilingual would be if I could express myself approximately equally well in both languages.  The same goes for sexuality.  That's why I think that truly bisexual people are in the smallest minority of the human race - because they are the people who are equally happy in a relationship with either sex.  The vast majority of people fall to one side or the other of that definition.

[kappadappa]

I think it's also worth noting that, since we are dealing with a work of fiction, it may be a good idea to look at what the writers are NOT showing us.  Brokeback is minimalist, and only the most important scenes/characters/words are included.  It's clear that Ennis loves Jack - another man.  We also see Ennis's marriage fall apart, and we see him avoid a beautiful new female love interest.  All of this points to the idea that Ennis is gay.

If we were to assume that Ennis was straight or bisexual, the writers would probably have shown us:  Ennis turning down the advances of another man.  Or - Ennis torn between his passionate love for a woman and his passionate love for Jack.  Or - lust for Cassie.  Or - indifference to the beauty of another man.

We are not shown any of these things.  We are only shown the bare strokes that reveal - when taken as a whole - that Ennis is gay.

This is a movie about thwarted gay love, not turbulent bi love.

The writers leave a lot open to interpretation (which I love) but they don't travel down the path of bisexuality.  They travel down the path of gay men following the dictum of society.

And again, I maintain my definition of 'bisexual' meaning one who has approximately equal attraction to both sexes.

[cythera4]

his love for Alma did not have anything to do with "mommy love" he loved her very much as his wife.. alot different I think...

I'm not sure he ever loved her fully. Though he defends her against Jack by saying "this ain't her fault," he had earlier said, in the motel, "I'm stuck with what I got here"--which doesn't suggest he's happily married.

[Castro]

Caroline said:

But I think that he loved her very much, but was SO conflicted in the passion that he felt for Jack.. His tears  with the divorce scene is very telling, he is devastated that he has lost her and the girls.. another moment of repressed tears and emotion that we see from him... it does not mean that he did not love her, he just didn't have the same amount of passion for her as he did for Jack...

One  reviewer commented that a lot of straight men should empathize with Ennis because their own marriages have become just as joyless.  I'm not sure how one comes to the conclusion that Ennis ultimately loved Alma "very much;" it looks to me like we are seeing a marriage that goes downhill from the start.   Admittedly, I didn't see the tears in the divorce scene which you discerned; just unhappiness.  But there's more reason to think he's unhappy over the loss of his daughters than of his wife.

 I did see that as a husband he is sexually inconsiderate (to say the least), doesn't want to give Alma the pleasure of a little social life, and throws a fit because she doesn't stay home to serve his dinner (and of course he's angry partly because she's going to work an extra shift because they need the money).   There doesn't even seem to be affection left by the time she divorces him. Sorry, but this doesn't look like a lotta love to me!

[sunspot]

Ennis is gay.  G-A-Y gay.  The screenwriters did everything but tattoo "GAY" on the guy's forehead.  He's about as bisexual as Nathan Lane. 

His marriage to Alma is shown as loveless from the start.  Just look at him in the wedding scene - he looks about as happy as he does getting divorced later in the film.  He barely kisses her the 1st time we see them together in bed, and promptly takes her from behind (in the butt, we're told in the short story).  The only time we see him happy with Alma is when they're roughhousing in the snow, but she's too timid and frail for very much of that.  Alma is a really poor, girly girl fit for Ennis.  He might have been able to at least relate better to a stronger woman, although he'd probably fear stronger woman because they might see right thru him.  He sure gets rid of Cassie later in the film once she grows too close.

The film doesn't show that Ennis loves Alma at all.  He feels sorry for her at times, when he's being honest with himself ("It ain't her fault.").  He has sex with her while desperately trying to pretend she's a man, avoiding kissing and taking her from behind, apparently just for the release.  He may also have sex with her because he feels sorry for her, because he likes Alma and wants to please her (they do have two children, after all).  Ennis made other sacrifices for Alma – we see him comfort the babies when they were screaming and he moved into town we she begged him to do it – but there's no passion in those actions.  What we see of their actual lovelife is about as passionate as taking out the garbage.

Jack might actually be somewhat bisexual.  He seems far more turned-on by Lureen in their first sex scene than Ennis ever is by Alma in the film.  I don't know if it's love, though.  Jack is something of a gigolo in that relationship, and I think he's flattered by the attention from such a sexy, fiery girl.  This is actually one of the places where the film works much better than the short story, since Jake Gyllenhaal is so good looking it's believable a rich girl with all the options in the world could fall for him – hard – at first sight. 

That last shot we get of him while they're dancing after the rodeo is priceless - a hollowed-out stare like a prostitute embracing her first John.  I think from that look alone you could argue that he's thoroughly gay, wants nothing to do with heterosexual love, and that the relationship with Lureen is purely a marriage of convenience from the start.