The Phone Call

[fofol]

   Sorry, I didn't address this in the earlier post: about the ranch neighbor being a fabrication.  He could be either real or a fabrication, but to me the point is that from the author's POV it seems to be not that relevant.   Anytime anything is mentioned in the short story without many details, we can assume (maybe even should assume, but I'm sure that's up to the individual  reader) that the subjects either have importance or don't in direct proportion to the author's emphasis, but that the author has given us as much material as she thought we'd need to get her point.

   From my personal point of view, the love story would be considerably lessened if Jack had a parttime lover, and in the heat of battle he does say, "I don't hardly ever get what I need."  If this means there's a secondary lover, I'm a multimillionaire.  Not.

[moondance]

fofol, I don't think the love story would be lessened if Jack had a part-time lover. But that is probably related to how you define "love". I would like nothing more than to "forsake all others" but I don't want to live a life of celibacy and loneliness during the times I can't be with the One I want to be with. I love him no less because there are others. The others are a means to help me cope.

"I don't hardly ever get what I need."  - what that means to me, is that what he really needs is Ennis. The prostitutes, the friends, Randall are all just what I call "bandaids".

But so much of the story is a matter of interpretation and perspective.

[moondance]

    There is no proof, or, from the perspective of a gay man with experience in Texas in this era, any reasonable expectation of survival for a homosexual man from out of state (id est, a non-Texan, a non-good ole boy) approaching someone from out of his economic and social class for a sexual encounter, despite the innuendo that he might be available for this experience - this is a classic set up to trap queers, and an Occam's Razor of an explanation of why Jack was killed.

That's a very interesting point of view. I guess we'll never really know. Obviously the authors didn't want us to know or they wouldn't have left so much open to interpretation.

What I sometimes ask myself is, did they (the authors of the story and script) really THINK about all these things as much as we do??   

[fofol]

fofol, I don't think the love story would be lessened if Jack had a part-time lover. But that is probably related to how you define "love". I would like nothing more than to "forsake all others" but I don't want to live a life of celibacy and loneliness during the times I can't be with the One I want to be with. I love him no less because there are others. The others are a means to help me cope.

"I don't hardly ever get what I need."  - what that means to me, is that what he really needs is Ennis. The prostitutes, the friends, Randall are all just what I call "bandaids".

But so much of the story is a matter of interpretation and perspective.

  There are many people who are willing to settle for less than the love of a lifetime: Jack was, Ennis didn't.  To Jack, sex and love are different; Ennis doesn't know enough about either (in the beginning - in Ennis's storyline, this is a coming of age story: it just takes 20 years) to differentiate the two.

[fofol]

fofol, I don't think the love story would be lessened if Jack had a part-time lover. But that is probably related to how you define "love". I would like nothing more than to "forsake all others" but I don't want to live a life of celibacy and loneliness during the times I can't be with the One I want to be with. I love him no less because there are others. The others are a means to help me cope.

"I don't hardly ever get what I need."  - what that means to me, is that what he really needs is Ennis. The prostitutes, the friends, Randall are all just what I call "bandaids".

But so much of the story is a matter of interpretation and perspective.

   Here's a little perspective: have you ever tolerated a lover who had another, permanently placed lover?  If you have, you're unusual compared to the rest of the 98.6% of the rest of us.

[CANSTANDIT]

   Sorry, I didn't address this in the earlier post: about the ranch neighbor being a fabrication.  He could be either real or a fabrication, but to me the point is that from the author's POV it seems to be not that relevant.   Anytime anything is mentioned in the short story without many details, we can assume (maybe even should assume, but I'm sure that's up to the individual  reader) that the subjects either have importance or don't in direct proportion to the author's emphasis, but that the author has given us as much material as she thought we'd need to get her point.

   From my personal point of view, the love story would be considerably lessened if Jack had a parttime lover, and in the heat of battle he does say, "I don't hardly ever get what I need."  If this means there's a secondary lover, I'm a multimillionaire.  Not.

It does seem contradictory, doesn't it? We are talking about this on TOTW, too: What is it Jack doesn't hardly get enough of, if he's got some booty at home? it does make you wonder..but in a way, this can actually strengthen the impact of his love for Ennis: Even with another local guy in the picture, it just reinforces what he is missing when not with Ennis. Of course, what he really craves-the dozy embrace-is not part of the scenario with Ennis, currently. So the only thing left is the memory of what was...that might be what he can't get from anyone else. There is no hope without the DE.The promise of Brokeback Mountain remains in Ennis's arms, and that is what no one else can give.

But Jack cannot articulate it-the 'needin something and not hardly gettin it' is something he may not have defined any better than Ennis.

[morrobay]

I was 32 in 1983, living in the Bay Area in California.  I was a hippie in the ‘60s, took part and thoroughly enjoyed the sexual revolution and considered myself very “worldly”.  Christ, was I wrong.  The world was so different then - no internet, instant news, you tube, texting, cell phones, etc.  You could insulate yourself quite well without even knowing it.  I didn’t know anything about anything that wasn’t part of my world. 

I became friends with a woman my same age, Jenny, and within days of us hanging out together, rumors were flying at work that I was gay.  I had no idea Jenny was, it simply never occurred to me.  Unless someone was incredibly blatant about it, I could no more tell if a person was gay than I could tell if a person liked cats.  She was nice, funny, we had things in common - full stop.

Why should we expect Lureen, born and bred in Texas, (of all Godforsaken places, no offense) to suspect that her husband might like men?  If he went out of his way to conceal it  from her at all, I don’t think she would know.  She probably knew he cheated, but assumed with women. 

I like to think that they loved each other.  In my mind, I know she loved Jack and he, in the beginning, loved her in his way.  He couldn’t overcome what he was, but I do think they both tried, at least for a while.  I think the phone call brought back things she had long tried to forget - all the painful details of her marriage falling apart over the years.  The movie was so powerful in so many ways, that it took me a while to fully appreciate Anne Hathaway’s magnificent performance. 

After Lureen hung up the phone, I can see her sitting there for a long, long time with memories flooding back and finally having to give in to feeling all the feelings she had repressed all those years.  And though the movie was there to show us how Jack’s death affected Ennis, I believe she was utterly devastated. 

[morrobay]

oh, all right -  she knew.  Happy?     
 

[jwm]

Hi I think that she didn't really know, she knew that something had changed in their relationship, there was someone or something that had changed her Jack over the years. Something that made him drink more, someting that made him keep a big part of his life secret, like his friends. I don't think that she really thought of the person to be Ennis though. The look on her face and the little noise she let escape when he mentioned Brokeback, and the the two of them herding sheep back in 63. That is when she put everything together, especially since she knew his name. the fishing buddy, or hunting buddy. She knew then and there that it was the man on the other end of the phone that had changed the course of their lives. So I do believe that she didn't really know until he heard the pain in his voice and the dispair he couldn't hide. She then carried on with more info and innuendo than she would have say if Randal or someone else had called. I am probably wrong but that is how I fell about it. Good to be back.
wendy

[Dal]

Hi wendy!   Welcome back

[morrobay]

Hi I think that she didn't really know, she knew that something had changed in their relationship, there was someone or something that had changed her Jack over the years. Something that made him drink more, someting that made him keep a big part of his life secret, like his friends. I don't think that she really thought of the person to be Ennis though. The look on her face and the little noise she let escape when he mentioned Brokeback, and the the two of them herding sheep back in 63. That is when she put everything together, especially since she knew his name. the fishing buddy, or hunting buddy. She knew then and there that it was the man on the other end of the phone that had changed the course of their lives. So I do believe that she didn't really know until he heard the pain in his voice and the dispair he couldn't hide. She then carried on with more info and innuendo than she would have say if Randal or someone else had called. I am probably wrong but that is how I fell about it. Good to be back.
wendy

Thanks, that's what I meant.  After my post I started thinking about the sound she made when talking to Ennis - and I thought ok, she did know.  But you explained it - she knew something, but not that it was Ennis (a man) until he called and she could hear the pain.

[fofol]

Wendy!!!   Welcome back!  I've missed your style and observations, great to hear your voice again, and glad to see you're still in great form.

[fofol]

It does seem contradictory, doesn't it? We are talking about this on TOTW, too: What is it Jack doesn't hardly get enough of, if he's got some booty at home? it does make you wonder..but in a way, this can actually strengthen the impact of his love for Ennis: Even with another local guy in the picture, it just reinforces what he is missing when not with Ennis. Of course, what he really craves-the dozy embrace-is not part of the scenario with Ennis, currently. So the only thing left is the memory of what was...that might be what he can't get from anyone else. There is no hope without the DE.The promise of Brokeback Mountain remains in Ennis's arms, and that is what no one else can give.

But Jack cannot articulate it-the 'needin something and not hardly gettin it' is something he may not have defined any better than Ennis.

   But isn't 'needin something and not hardly gettin it' defined by Jack's statement that he can't get along on two high altitude fucks a year?

[BayCityJohn]

Annie Proulx says in the short story that "Ennis didn' hear about the accident for months."

But Ennis knew:

The old man spoke angrily. "I can't get no help out here. Jack used a
say, 'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, 'I'm goin a bring him up here one
a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.' He had some
half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log
cabin and help me run this ranch and bring it up. Then, this spring
he's got another one's goin a come up here with him and build a
place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down
in Texas. He's goin a split up with his wife and come back here. So
he says. But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass."

"So now he knew it had been the tire iron."

[janjo]

But he didn't know anything. He only knows what we know, which is what Lureen says happened, and Ennis has to believe it was the "tyre iron" because it justifies his behaviour over the past twenty years.
If it is really what happened it is a little too "pat" really.

Having said all that I think it is each one of us to decide.