The Phone Call

[Ministering angel]

Tactful? What's that? Never fear, Paul, we are a resilient bunch indeed. I think the consensus on the forum is that Randall and Jack were an item. Most people assume that fact, not through some process of discussion leading to a conclusion but through their own interpretation of the story/film. In other words (IOW  ) most people draw that conclusion because it feels right to them rather than because it is unofficial forum policy. However, you are not alone in questioning that assumption.

I think that both media lay down the groundwork for Jack's homosexual activities when he's not with Ennis (in the film it's the rodeo clown  attempted pickup, the trip to Mexico, the "friends: Lureen mentions, plus Jack's cry that he can't make it on a couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year) so the idea that he might have an affair with a ranch neighbour is not coming from out of the blue. The father's words at Lightning Flat are the icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned.

As regards spell-checker, I pay it no attention and always use English/Australian spelling. Type "offence" and to hell with the little red underlines!

[Sandy]

Jack and Randall are a couple in the views of those who believe that their being a couple furthers other arguments made on this threads, i.e., that Jack would quit Ennis for the ranch neighbor. But taken in and of itself, there is little motivation for making them out to be a couple.

So I would dissent from Mini's judgment. The term consensus generally implies agreement to a level that has not been demonstrated on these threads.

[Ministering angel]

Incorrect, Sandy. I do not believe that Jack would leave Ennis for Randall, yet I believe that Jack and Randall had some sort of relationship happening beyond the standard neighbourly thing. Sexual? Most likely. I base this on what I perceive in the film and how I interpret what is written in the story. Those who argue that J&R were an item are not necessarily the same people who argue that Jack would quit. Perhaps you meant "e.g." rather than "i.e."?

As for motivation, it strikes me that Jack is shown to move from casual hookups at trade shows, and use of "Mexican" prostitutes, through to his circle of "friends" that Lureen knows about, all the way to a relationship which is serious enough that he hints of it to Ennis and then openly mentions it to his father. IOW his need for sustenance between fishing trips grows as his despair grows. Perhaps they feed each other.

[Sandy]

There is nothing incorrect about my dissenting, and I continue to do so. 

Jack and Randall being an item is usually conjured up as a subsidiary argument for some other point being made, such as Jack quitting Ennis. I would like to see the quitting camp re-state it arguments without reference to Randall or the ranch neighbor.

On its own, the presence of Randall can be seen as something that lends versimilitude or atomosphere to the story. One could just as easily say that Randall was inserted there, not to affirm a sexual relationship with Jack, but to serve as a foil to Jack's relationship with Ennis. That is, Randall could be taken as a representation of the normal society and relationships which Jack's sexuality and desires grate against. Jack can't get it right in normal society, only when he's in Ennis' company. So Randall doesn't enter into a personal relationship with Jack any more than Aguirre does. They're part of the social wallpaper.

[CANSTANDIT]

I think there is a ranch neighbor, though.

....I don't agree that Jack was engaging as a bisexual male, but rather as a closeted gay male, so the 'ranch foreman's wife' in the short story (SS)-sorry, Paul  -does serve to me as a clue that he is with the foreman..Why would he cheat with a woman? That doesn't ease the pain of missing Ennis.

 The father adding in the 'other one', ie, the ranch neighbor, at the end, combined with Jack's need to support Ennis's delusion that neither of them can be gay-remember, he felt the need to lie about it, at the Reunion;, and added to the fact that, from early on he was riding more than the bulls, tells me it's a real-if not particularly deep or important-thing with the RN.

 I think the film  indeed echoes the SS in this regard, with Randall-but it is, IMO, an intense exaggeration of the SS, used to fuel the 'quit' idea.

I think the RN was a distraction, that reminded Jack of what was not right about Ennis and him; I think the idea of the RN suggesting they go fishing on weekends, tells us Jack may not get more than a local Ennis-like approach, from this guy... someone that Jack imagines is primarily interested in those HAFs-or LAFs, whatever.

But from Lurene's pov: We never get a hint that from her that things were over with her and Jack-you'd think she'd bring  it  up with the fishing buddy/hunting buddy he's been going away with for 16 years....yet, not a word. I do think also another clue, regarding the phone call, is Lurene's comment about Jack keeping his friends numbers in his head-how odd if you think about it, that even his wife was not privy to his "friends'" phone numbers. It tells us these friends might be of a certain persuasion, no? And it was plural-not indicative of a special one, like some might assume the RN may be. I really think Ennis was it-and when he thought he'd never get it right, well, I can only imagine what that final blow did.

Is this straying, topic-wise?

[Desecra]

Yes, two mentions of a ranch neighbour - I don't think it's coincidence . 

I don't think the film exaggerates, CSI, except in that it carries on the relationship too long, I think.   But I think in the film we have to be shown Randall, because we're seeing more from Jack's point of view.  I do believe that if we didn't see him, many people would assume the neighbour was female - they've been watching Ennis and Cassie. 

[CANSTANDIT]

Yes, it does carry it on way too long..in the SS, the thing is only a few months old. I think that makes a big difference, as to how seriously it can be viewed.

(Uh=oh, q/nq is starting to find it's way in here....  )

[Sandy]

Maybe we are straying off topic. Seems like this discussion would better appear on the Quit thread.

[Paul029]

Hi Sandy, Where has the Quit thread gone, please?
I can't find it, sob sob
Paul

[Sandy]

Paul,

It's under "Elements and Themes."

Sandy

[fofol]

Tactful? What's that? Never fear, Paul, we are a resilient bunch indeed. I think the consensus on the forum is that Randall and Jack were an item. Most people assume that fact, not through some process of discussion leading to a conclusion but through their own interpretation of the story/film. In other words (IOW  ) most people draw that conclusion because it feels right to them rather than because it is unofficial forum policy. However, you are not alone in questioning that assumption.

I think that both media lay down the groundwork for Jack's homosexual activities when he's not with Ennis (in the film it's the rodeo clown  attempted pickup, the trip to Mexico, the "friends: Lureen mentions, plus Jack's cry that he can't make it on a couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year) so the idea that he might have an affair with a ranch neighbour is not coming from out of the blue. The father's words at Lightning Flat are the icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned.

As regards spell-checker, I pay it no attention and always use English/Australian spelling. Type "offence" and to hell with the little red underlines!

   ...just shows to go ya how wrong 'most people' can be....

[fofol]

  In the film, Jack pointedly does not respond to Randall's suggestions.  He, in fact, makes eye contact with him only once at the dance, and does not respond in any way to Randall's suggestion of a trip to the croppie house, other than refusing to look at him.  On top of that, the plain fact is that it would have been extremely foolish and dangerous for any gay man at that time to agree to a homosexual contact with someone of a different social status than h he met by chance under a heterosexual aegis.

  If memory serves, the mention of a ranch neighbor's wife occurs twice in the short story: once when truth and lies get mixed around the campfire; and second by OMT when he implies to Ennis that he is repeating what Jack apparently said well before he could have gotten to Childress to make any arrangements for anyone from Texas to join him in Wyoming.

  There is no proof, or, from the perspective of a gay man with experience in Texas in this era, any reasonable expectation of survival for a homosexual man from out of state (id est, a non-Texan, a non-good ole boy) approaching someone from out of his economic and social class for a sexual encounter, despite the innuendo that he might be available for this experience - this is a classic set up to trap queers, and an Occam's Razor of an explanation of why Jack was killed.

[CANSTANDIT]

  In the film, Jack pointedly does not respond to Randall's suggestions.  He, in fact, makes eye contact with him only once at the dance, and does not respond in any way to Randall's suggestion of a trip to the croppie house, other than refusing to look at him.  On top of that, the plain fact is that it would have been extremely foolish and dangerous for any gay man at that time to agree to a homosexual contact with someone of a different social status than h he met by chance under a heterosexual aegis.

Good points, but I don't know about social status-Randall is a college-educated ranch foreman, vs Jack being a salesman in a well-to-do local family. I always thought Randall's polish was supposed to offset Ennis in a way-to remind audiences what a diff depravation can mean; and also, to give Jack food for thought. It never occurred to me to compare his and Jack's backgrounds. In addition, Randall has similiar colouring to movie Ennis, plus he's big and tall-a suggestion thta maybe Jack would then be attracted to him? I don't know about the danger factor, myself-I wonder if it was just plain dangerous, no matter what-?


 

If memory serves, the mention of a ranch neighbor's wife occurs twice in the short story: once when truth and lies get mixed around the campfire; and second by OMT when he implies to Ennis that he is repeating what Jack apparently said well before he could have gotten to Childress to make any arrangements for anyone from Texas to join him in Wyoming.


  There is no proof, or, from the perspective of a gay man with experience in Texas in this era, any reasonable expectation of survival for a homosexual man from out of state (id est, a non-Texan, a non-good ole boy) approaching someone from out of his economic and social class for a sexual encounter, despite the innuendo that he might be available for this experience - this is a classic set up to trap queers, and an Occam's Razor of an explanation of why Jack was killed.

So you are saying Jack would not have been likely to go forward with it? This is intriguing-can you elaborate, Mike? Do you see the SS ranch neighbor as a fabrication?

[fofol]

1)  Jack may have apparent social status nearly equal to Randall, but remember LD Newsome is tighter than a tick on an unconscious sheep with the good ole boy network - his status in this community (read: wealth) would in fact make him one of Childress's leading citizens, and he has made sure that everyone knows that before Jack married into his family, he was a down-at-the-heels rodeo bull-rider.  (Those are LD's good ole boys dissing Jack in the tractor dealership office, in front of Lureen.)  Everyone in the small town of Childress will have LD's take on Jack: a poor ranch stiff from out of state - as good as a broke foreigner.  So there is a huge difference in social status between them.

2)  I've never trusted OMT, so he could be lying too, but even if he isn't, Jack is not reporting to him events which have already occured, but what he states at the time are his potential intentions: Jack talks with OMT about his perhaps plans after the fishin' trip with Ennis, but before he goes home to Childress.  Jack's always headed home: either to Childress, Mom & Dad's, or to his real home, Ennis.

[Dal]

~ Jack's always headed home: either to Childress, Mom & Dad's, or to his real home, Ennis.

Good point.  As much as Ennis, Jack too is confined to moving in a circle, looking for the handle.