When will a kiss not be shocking?

[dejavu]

Does anyone think the kiss on BBM will help to change things?  Especially now that it won "Best Kiss" on the MTV awards.  I didn't see the award show but I hope they showed a clip of the kiss!

Hi, Pooh,
No the show hasn't been aired yet.  The ceremony was Saturday night and taped, to be shown this coming Thursday night in U.S., so be sure to watch. 

I only saw still pictures of Jake accepting awards, etc...but I would imagine that they would show parts of all the nominations (there's also "best fight" and how could you appreciate that without seeing clips, for example) so I have my hopes up that clips of the all the kisses will be shown.  Will it change anything?  Hmm, probably the MTV awards have a limited audience (I wouldn't be watching if not for Jake and BBM this year).  But maybe for the younger generation . . .?  And word gets around . . .

[Daphne and Chloe]

Does anyone think the kiss on BBM will help to change things?  Especially now that it won "Best Kiss" on the MTV awards.  I didn't see the award show but I hope they showed a clip of the kiss!

Hi, Pooh,
No the show hasn't been aired yet.  The ceremony was Saturday night and taped, to be shown this coming Thursday night in U.S., so be sure to watch. 

I only saw still pictures of Jake accepting awards, etc...but I would imagine that they would show parts of all the nominations (there's also "best fight" and how could you appreciate that without seeing clips, for example) so I have my hopes up that clips of the all the kisses will be shown.  Will it change anything?  Hmm, probably the MTV awards have a limited audience (I wouldn't be watching if not for Jake and BBM this year).  But maybe for the younger generation . . .?  And word gets around . . .

Yay, Jack and Ennis won for best kiss. I did not know this.

Thank you also for letting us know the MTV awards are airing this Thursday. I do not get the TV Guide. Oh and they had BETTER show a clip of the kiss. They will air a lot of repeats of the show, so I hope everyone will be able to view it.

[kappadappa]

They absolutely will show the kiss.  The MTV Movie awards are always a hoot and they edit the nominees together in fun, edgy ways.  There's no way they would nominate the kiss and not show it.

One year they had the actors from the Brady Bunch acting out scenes from films, and they showed Carol Brady doing the infamous Sharon Stone scene from Basic Instinct for the benefit of her "sons", so they sure as heck won't shy away from a gay kiss.

Plus, this season of the Real World has had some hot and heavy gay kissing and more, so Brokeback is almost tame.

[jessii]

They did show the kiss and it really was the best there anyway, wow I was so happy I jumped and screamed LOL
Jake also won for 'Best Performer'!!!

[spaino]

I contributed quite a lot to this thread back in late January and early February. Was the first thread I posted to actually, so there's a bit of sentimentality attached to it. Am glad to hear that Jack and Ennis' kiss won the MTV award but I don't think winning the award will change anything per-se. Winning the award reflects the kind of tolerance that the younger members of our society already have and I expect most older members of the society will largely remain ignorant of the win in any case. (I don't even think its the first time a same-sex kiss has won the award.)

Same-sex kisses only lose their shock-factor after a person sees them often enough for the act to become mundane. Society as a whole will only stop being shocked when enough people accept the act as being mundane. When that happens there will be a twofold effect. Those who continue to be affronted will be forced to ponder their reaction and either change it or go into the closet on the subject of not being comfortable with it. (A delightful irony, but not a very healthy decision for the affronted person.) Those who enjoy same-sex kissing will be encouraged to overcome their self-hate and do so in public more often.

As to WHEN that tipping point happens, its anyone's guess. Hopefully within my lifetime, but outside the gay ghettos probably not any time soon.

[spaino]

Also like to point out that there were many posters on this thread earlier and on another thread that didn't want the 'Reunion Kiss' to be shown on Oprah - and it was - and many more that couldn't imagine it being shown at the Oscars - and it was as well. So things are changing.

Was there an outcry against broadcasting the two kisses? I do not know. (Certainly not as large as the one over Janet Jackson's display of nipple jewelry.) Still, its one thing to see a kiss on TV and not spill one's drink and another to see it happen on the street and be able to maintain one's stride.

[glassrobot]

Also like to point out that there were many posters on this thread earlier and on another thread that didn't want the 'Reunion Kiss' to be shown on Oprah -

I thought it was cheesy that they showed it on Oprah because it is supposed to be a very potent scene, and yet people who watch the show will already go into the theatre knowing it would happen.  And don't get me started with Oprah practically summarizing the whole movie a la Cliffs Notes for the entire audience... my friend and I had a good laugh about it (although I was crying on the inside) that the homophobes can just watch that episode of Oprah and know the entire movie without having to see the mansex.   I noticed Heath and Jake looked fidgety whenever Oprah broke into another summarizing spell...I wanted to smack her.  At this point they look like they're thinking "forget the box office, Oprah should just read the entire script on air!"

[madameshawshank]

spaino 'n glassrobot...couldn't agree more!


as long as people accept their conditioning/programming without ever stopping in their tracks to ask "Is this REALLY who I choose to be?  Is this HOW I choose to be?  Am I who I am because I've been to damn lazy to create myself?"..oh I could go on but won't

perhaps it's easier to drift along...with the programmed flow...that business of stopping, while family, society, church whatever says "Come on, don't you dare stop and be yourself!"...for so many it's easier to drift...however the experience of stopping and asking the ?s is exhilarating ~ a tad confronting at times, however the view from that mountain top is priceless..

am imagining that kisses have been no big deal...that a kiss is just a kiss....as a rose is a rose....'n if a community had never had the no kiss law etc....then all would be as it would be...

speaking with a pal today who told me a relative of hers, who died of AIDS, told her that when he was a little boy he found it unsettling to see his mother and father kiss...the idea of female to male kissing...it didn't seem right to him..

so darlings all...I doth raise ma glass to the day when a kiss won't be confronting to those confronted by THE kiss...

my oh my I is a straight dame and certainly didn't find the kiss shocking....knock ya socks of passion ..all consuming...two as one...an emotion-drenched equation.....trying to find the words...maybe there aren't any to even come close to describe that scene...however the writers on this forum do a mighty fine joy of description

hugs to all ~ 'n GO THE SOCCEROOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Australia v Italy in the World Cup early Oz time...the heart is pumping!

[David Dragon 3]

The most beautiful thing happened the other day that I am still a little moved by it.  My five year old nephew puckered up and my three year old nephew gave him a kiss.  Then the five year old looked at me and said with a big grin on is face that he taught my other nephew how to kiss.  It was completely innocent without all the bull.  Just a sweet expresion and I was totally moved.  I think the problem comes from what we are taught from our society and this gives us the problems we have with two men kissing.  If we could take a lesson from my nephews that a kiss is a way of showing affection for those that you love.  We should be as ok with it as it is with them.

[madameshawshank]

DD3, would ya give those nephews of yours some mighty big XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXs from me! oh, 'n hugs...I doth love giving hugs

[daannzzz]

I remember my father pulling me aside one night after an extended family gathering. I was 10 or eleven. He told me not to kiss my uncles goodbye anymore, that a hand shake was proper now. I felt very emberassed and bad.

[Redbrit]

^^^ The two different reactions really show what homophobia is actually about. We should be energetically reclaiming the language of defending the family, family values etc., because it is we who want the family to be about people loving one another while it is those who hate and fear affection between men (sexual or not) who turn the family into a prison of emotion.

[dback]

I remember my father pulling me aside one night after an extended family gathering. I was 10 or eleven. He told me not to kiss my uncles goodbye anymore, that a hand shake was proper now. I felt very emberassed and bad.

That's grimly funny, because my partner's niece and nephew (ages 8 and 4) are two of the rudest, most self-centered and unaffectionate children you'll ever meet.  They NEVER, EVER hug or kiss us, nor the grandparents that I've seen.  (The 8 year-old girl will do a kind of half-hearted drape against you for 1.5 seconds when you leave.)  Very odd, considering we have lots of friends who's kids will run to see us at the door when we arrive or depart and are very affectionate.  (They're also both very focused with order, control, and routine, so its possible that they have Asperger's--but try suggesting that to the parents.)  Frankly, being around them has become such an endurance test, I'm almost glad that they're so glacial or rude; it's easier to not make an effort at a relationship or send gifts (which, of course, we never get thanked for). 

Aside from them, we know boys who are as affectionate as girls, though boys often like to be swooped up and tickled or turned upside down with some playful roughhousing when they're being hugged and kissed.  Definitely seems to be a bit of gender inclination there.

[Gypsy23]

When I first saw the BBM commercial, I was like, WTF!?!?  It looks like a movie about tw heterosexual romances with an incidental buddy relationship thrown in for good measure.  Then I started thinking, maybe the purpose of this commercial (and maybe the Golden Globes clip) is, just in small part, to show people some of the aspects of this movie that they are unaware of. 

I know this is going back a ways, but I wanted to comment.  I never saw BBM in the the theaters, and didn't decide to buy the DVD until May, when they were promoting it on TV.  (I watch a lot of TV).  I guess I live under a rock, but I hardly knew anything about BBM at all.  The only way I found out about it was through the commercials.  And it was kind of funny, because the idea I got about the movie turned out to be completely different than what it turned out to be.  I wasn't disappointed, just surprised. 

First of all, I gathered that the "gay cowboys" thing was just a sub-plot.  I thought the families and the people around the two men were the central charcters.  I thought it was more of an ensemble drama, with several main stories going on at once, and that the two-men-falling-in-love was a small, almost incidental thing.  For some odd reason I had the idea that the men were childhood friends who lived in the same town and whose families were very close.  I also didn't think they ever consummated their feelings.  I got the impression that they forever hid their feelings from each other.  And I also didn't realize Heath and Jake had the lead roles.

So it was just kind of funny to have formed this whole idea about the movie that turned out to be wrong in every possible way.  Very weird.  The movie I had imagined in my head based on the commercials was so different from what it actually was that I could write a script for it and it wouldn't resemble or plagarize the real BBM in any way.   So it could be true that they wanted to show different aspects of the movie, but in doing so, at least for me, it made it out to look like something totally different.

Even the DVD is confusing.  Saying that the two form a "lifelong connection" -  people can do that with their pets.  And then the photos - Ennis and Alma holding each other, Jack and Lureen dancing, Jack and Ennis about a foot apart looking like they're talking about the World Series.    If I had no idea what the movie was about, and I picked it up at the video store or something, it would NOT occur to me that this was a love story between two men.   But maybe that is the point?  To draw people in who otherwise might not give it a second thought?

Still, it was funny to watch it for the first time and not have the foggiest idea what was going to happen.  I think it was maybe 20 minutes in before it started to dawn on me that the movie was going to be about Ennis and Jack almost exclusively.  (Not complaining).

[dback]

Same-sex kisses only lose their shock-factor after a person sees them often enough for the act to become mundane. Society as a whole will only stop being shocked when enough people accept the act as being mundane. When that happens there will be a twofold effect. Those who continue to be affronted will be forced to ponder their reaction and either change it or go into the closet on the subject of not being comfortable with it. (A delightful irony, but not a very healthy decision for the affronted person.) Those who enjoy same-sex kissing will be encouraged to overcome their self-hate and do so in public more often.

As to WHEN that tipping point happens, its anyone's guess. Hopefully within my lifetime, but outside the gay ghettos probably not any time soon.

A year or so ago, a cable channel reran the subpar "Airplane!" sequel, which came out Christmas of '82, got some bad reviews and mostly has faded from memory.  However, one of the more surprising and endearing moments was two middle-aged dandruffy businessmen saying goodbye at the gate and discussing some mundane things; they then very matter-of-factly leaned in and kissed each other goodbye on the lips.  Two decades ago, this was shocking and a punchline to make audiences laugh; today, it's probably a daily event at most airports in the Western world.   Times do change.