When will a kiss not be shocking?

[OpethJules]

When a friend of mine told our group (of friends) he was gay, everyone acted all happy that he came out and supportive. One night, when we met the boyfriend, everything was going fine until....the....kiss! Oh, it was only a peck on the cheek, but the room went silent. Awkward conversation followed. Later, when I got home, a friend called asking me if I could believe what they did. And what exactly did they do? A lot less than the rest of them have done in front of each other. Hypocrites. Funny, they don't seem to mind if I kiss a girl. Aren't double standards great? Although, I would say mine is tolerated primarily because some straight guys get off on two girls. Whatever. Can't win.
I have since become a hermit, occupied with work and school and no time for "friends".  Had it with peoples attitudes and hate.
 

[Redbrit]

Opeth - I think you need to contact these so called friends of yours and have a long chat. They can't be all bad to have greated your friend's coming out so positively, but they have to understand that what they did is totally unacceptible. I can appreciate how difficult it might be. Every time I try to write this it turns into a rant because I'm so angry! How dare they? But we all have to take a deep breath and calmly think how we can educate these charming people in the ways of politeness - and not being knuckle-heads. (OK - I had to allow myself that one. I can only manage so much self-restraint!) I would probably start my conversation something like this. 'Hi X, you know that time Y kissed W at the party and everyone went quiet? Well, I'm really upset about this. All this time you and the guys have made out how OK you were with people like me being gay, but the first time you see anyone act on it, you act as though they've done something outrageous. If you've been wondering why I haven't been around much lately, there's your reason. I don't really know any more if you're any kind of friend to me.'...and so on. How's that sound?

[davidjoseph]

I agree this is a strange phenomenon. I've kissed the women and men I care about my whole life. Sometimes there are reactions and sometimes there aren't. It seems as if it's getting worse as time goes bye, and the gulf bewteeen what is "gay" and what is "straight" gets wider. In my own life I experienced a real emotional and sexual breakthrough when I kissed (actually made out) with my best male friend in high school and in college. I think it was a deep expression of our love so it didn't make any difference that he was a guy. I don't usually kiss people who I don't care about so maybe that's the criteria for getting more intimate. The kissing with women and men is the same except I've found that the emotional bond tends to determine the intensity.  I know when I made out with my best male friend the first time it was the most beautiful and intense experience. I remember crying it felt so right.

[Redbrit]

I'm interested that you say you think it's getting worse. I'm assuming you're in the US. Here in the UK I think things are generally getting better. We had a program on BBC2 last night about gays in parliament. It wasn't a very good program - they seemed to think we needed a kind of Janet and John guide to being gay and there wasn't much that was new aside from a lot of speculation about some past political figures. Despite its shortcomings though the program did manage to illustrate how much things have changed for us here in the last 37 year, since Stonewall. We now have, apparently, ten out gay or lesbian MPs. As far as I know there are out gay members of each of the major parties. This is a major change from 20 years ago when there was a vicious homophobic campaign against Peter Tatchell when he was standing in Bermondsey for the Labour Party. There is even a gay member of the Tory Shadow Cabinet. (Quick lesson in UK civics - the Shadow Cabinet is a group of party members, almost always MPs except for representatives to the House of Lords, whose members are selected by the leader of the opposition to 'shadow' their opposite numbers in the government - a shadow health minister for the health minister, a shadow chancellor of the exchequer for the chancellor of the exchequer{finance minister]) The thought of a Tory politician being out would have been unthinkable, effectively political suicide, only a few years ago.

Social attitudes are also getting much better. Surveys keep showing that attitudes towards gay marriage or partnership, adoption etc. are moving towards greater acceptance - and better still, the younger generation always show more tolerant attitudes. Things can still be bad - there is still queer-bashing, people still get discriminated against at work, though this is now illegal and regularly gets challenge by unions - who are by enlarge extremely supportive of their gay members and send along official contingents to Gay Pride/Madigras events. In other words, we still have a long way to go, but things are definitely on the up. Here in Brighton, I've started to notice gay and lesbian couples walking hand in hand outside the well-known gay area of Kemptown. They still get some funny looks, but I think the barriers on the ghetto are starting to come down. Brighton is a special case being so gay friendly even by UK standards, but I still think this is potentially a harbinger of things to come. All of this is subject to the previso that any gains we have made could always be taken back if the situation got worse; and, as I have already said, we still have far to go.

[davidjoseph]

I am in the US. I was referring to how the culture here deals wuth same-sex kissing. I think there's more polarization with regard to all things sexual/emotional. It's still not comfortable for me to kiss my same-sex friend in public mostly because there's negative feelings about it. The same with holding hands or hugging. However I do agree with you that over-all attitudes about gays and lesbians are definitely improving, especially among younger people.
At the same time in the US we have to contend with the right-wing religious fundamentalists who constantly attack anyone who doesn't agree with them on any issue. These same groups use the discomfort many men have toward same-sex affection against the political gay organizations.
At another level I feel that same-sex affection in whatever arena is just another way for us to be human, and many American men haven't discovered that truth yet. Most haven't had the opportunity to care for another man even in a platonic relationship.

I'm interested that you say you think it's getting worse. I'm assuming you're in the US. Here in the UK I think things are generally getting better. We had a program on BBC2 last night about gays in parliament. It wasn't a very good program - they seemed to think we needed a kind of Janet and John guide to being gay and there wasn't much that was new aside from a lot of speculation about some past political figures. Despite its shortcomings though the program did manage to illustrate how much things have changed for us here in the last 37 year, since Stonewall. We now have, apparently, ten out gay or lesbian MPs. As far as I know there are out gay members of each of the major parties. This is a major change from 20 years ago when there was a vicious homophobic campaign against Peter Tatchell when he was standing in Bermondsey for the Labour Party. There is even a gay member of the Tory Shadow Cabinet. (Quick lesson in UK civics - the Shadow Cabinet is a group of party members, almost always MPs except for representatives to the House of Lords, whose members are selected by the leader of the opposition to 'shadow' their opposite numbers in the government - a shadow health minister for the health minister, a shadow chancellor of the exchequer for the chancellor of the exchequer{finance minister]) The thought of a Tory politician being out would have been unthinkable, effectively political suicide, only a few years ago.

Social attitudes are also getting much better. Surveys keep showing that attitudes towards gay marriage or partnership, adoption etc. are moving towards greater acceptance - and better still, the younger generation always show more tolerant attitudes. Things can still be bad - there is still queer-bashing, people still get discriminated against at work, though this is now illegal and regularly gets challenge by unions - who are by enlarge extremely supportive of their gay members and send along official contingents to Gay Pride/Madigras events. In other words, we still have a long way to go, but things are definitely on the up. Here in Brighton, I've started to notice gay and lesbian couples walking hand in hand outside the well-known gay area of Kemptown. They still get some funny looks, but I think the barriers on the ghetto are starting to come down. Brighton is a special case being so gay friendly even by UK standards, but I still think this is potentially a harbinger of things to come. All of this is subject to the previso that any gains we have made could always be taken back if the situation got worse; and, as I have already said, we still have far to go.

[samsung]

I am in the US. I was referring to how the culture here deals wuth same-sex kissing. I think there's more polarization with regard to all things sexual/emotional. It's still not comfortable for me to kiss my same-sex friend in public mostly because there's negative feelings about it. The same with holding hands or hugging. However I do agree with you that over-all attitudes about gays and lesbians are definitely improving, especially among younger people.
At the same time in the US we have to contend with the right-wing religious fundamentalists who constantly attack anyone who doesn't agree with them on any issue. These same groups use the discomfort many men have toward same-sex affection against the political gay organizations.
At another level I feel that same-sex affection in whatever arena is just another way for us to be human, and many American men haven't discovered that truth yet. Most haven't had the opportunity to care for another man even in a platonic relationship.

I think the key word here is "polarization."  It doesn't suggest a declining situation, only that more and more people are staking out a position, leaving less room for indifference.  This phenomenon always accompanies social change.  But the change is the key.  In my mind there is no doubt that homophobia is losing ground, even in the US.  All the polls show it.  And 500,000 high school kids just participated in the Day of Silence to protest homophobia.  A great portent for the future and unimaginable even 5 years ago.

The other side is hardening precisely because they know they're losing this "culture war."  And at times they lash out.  But this is from weakness, not strength. 

Of course, the pace of this change differs from place to place (don't know where you are).  But in more and more cities, there are places where kissing your boyfriend in public ain't no big deal any more.

[dback]

So a year or so ago I was substitute teaching a math class one day (around 10th grade), and a guy somehow brings up the fact that someday he and his best male friend have no problem making out with each other--and proceeded to demonstrate.  After I recovered my eyebrows (which had nearly crawled off my forehead), I commandeered the situation with, "Gentlemen, I wouldn't permit a male-female couple to do this in class, and you're no different."  (Later, when I gave out the in-class assignment but told them they only had to do every other problem, one of the guys said he felt so grateful, he wanted to give me a hug; I told him he'd have to do it in front of the class and keep it brief.  Frankly, I was starting to wonder if he was promiscuous.)

I've had lots of days where the air is thick with "faggot" this and "homo" that, but a surprising number of kids have shot right back and called kids on their prejudices, and one was sophisticated enough when two guys were venting about a male-male kiss in Christina Aguilera's "Beautiful" video to shut them up with, "You guys always whine and bitch about two guys, but if it's two women you're all over it."  So things are changing....slowly.

[kappadappa]

I have to say, I'm still grateful to MTV's The Real World for breaking through many gay stereotypes and opening young people's eyes to the fact that gay people aren't weird scary creatures, but "normal" folks like everyone else.

Watching this season of The Real World (yes, I'm too old to be watching it, but too bad.  It's a guilty pleasure) I was amazed to see a scene where the gay male roommate was kissing and fooling around explicitly in a hot tub with a guy he brought home.  Not only were the female roommates spying on them and enjoying the show, but so were the straight male roommates.  And the only one who seemed shocked by what they were seeing was a sheltered straight woman.  There was no typical male response of "Gross" or "Sick" or "How can they do that?"  The guys simply had fun watching.

Things have come a long way for young people today.  It gives me hope that the political climate we are experiencing today will eventually pass to a brighter future.

[Redbrit]

Well aren't I sorry I was away from this thread the last few days? I particularly like davidjones' argument about polarisation - that's it in a nutshell - small, frightened creatures who know they're cornered. Of course, there's no room for complacency, in fact I've just been having this argument almost in reverse in the How BBM affected me thread where I've had to point out that problems do still exist and society needs changing. (I'm simplifying here - both their arguments and mine were quite a bit more complex than that.) As I see it, almost 40 years of high profile campaigning is paying dividends. We need to keep the pressure up to get where we want to be, but we should take encouragement from how far we've managed to get so far. And the young generation coming up now - they're bloody marvelous! Both the straights and the gays and lesbians. The gays and lesbians are much less inclined to take shit than we are and many young straight people are completely open, accepting and supportive - even though there are still plenty of dickheads. I look to the future with a huge amount of hope.

[lovedalittledog]

The other day I was in the park and I noticed two young guys holding hands.  I did a double take.
I'm embarrassed to say that I was mildly shocked by the guys affection, and I was surprised at my reaction because I am an openly gay man. While I've never been publicly affectionate with my partners I do feel a sense of joy knowing that those guys can show affection in public and not be harassed.

I think we may have to get used to these little things like holding hands first. The non-shocking kissing will come later...I hope.

[Redbrit]

I kissed a guy on the platform of Fenchurch Street station in central London once. I think he was the one most shocked.  With another guy I went out with for a while (total disaster, but let's not go there) I had a full-on rolling in the grass snogfest in Greenwich park. I'll probably get my head kicked in doing this stuff one of these days, but at least I can feel that I've earned by beating!

[john john]

My very best friend outed himself at the ripe old age of 53 three years ago. A year later he married his boyfriend (we're Canadian, we're allowed!)
At the wedding in front of mostly straight guests, they of course kissed and I being gay was somehow "irked" by it. Let me explain!!!
I've seen these two kiss often, I was there when they first met and we hanged out, all in a "gay setting". Somehow at the wedding I saw them from the point of view of most of the attendance and was worried about its acceptance of not only the kiss but the whole gay marriage thing.
Somehow I became straight! This is probably due to my own paranoia about homophobia or wanting everybody to be happy and accepting of their union. I must issues I haven't resolved...

[dback]

My very best friend outed himself at the ripe old age of 53 three years ago. A year later he married his boyfriend (we're Canadian, we're allowed!)
At the wedding in front of mostly straight guests, they of course kissed and I being gay was somehow "irked" by it. Let me explain!!!
I've seen these two kiss often, I was there when they first met and we hanged out, all in a "gay setting". Somehow at the wedding I saw them from the point of view of most of the attendance and was worried about its acceptance of not only the kiss but the whole gay marriage thing.
Somehow I became straight! This is probably due to my own paranoia about homophobia or wanting everybody to be happy and accepting of their union. I must issues I haven't resolved...

When my partner and I finished our vows and exchanged rings, there was a very pregnant pause...and then we shook hands.  This was 1) symbolic (it's a symbol of "no weapons or defenses"), and 2) it shattered any potential tension which might have been hovering for folks who'd never seen us be intimate before.  Then, as the laughter quieted down, we finally kissed.   It felt like exactly the right way to do it.  (Mind you, I think Jack Black and Lee Emery in "Saving Silverman" have THE best wedding kiss two men could have.)

[dejavu]

Well, I guess by now this thread knows that the Ennis/Jack reunion kiss won the "Best Kiss" in the MTV movie awards (to be broadcast on Thursday night in U.S.)  That's progress, I'd say, that it was even seriously considered and voted on by the majority of "fans" doing the voting.

Dave Cullen, if you're still reading this thread, it's fascinating.  Say hi to Capitol Hill in Denver for me.  I lived there once in mid-1970s, vicinity of 8th and Ogden, with some friends -- straight female, gay male -- and we had lots of both gay and straight people hang out at our house.  We had the first floor of a three-apartment house, which gave us the front porch which was partly hidden by a two-foot-high wall.  That's where I saw my first male-male kiss, one summer night, when two friends (my coworker and his lover) came down to visit.  They were sitting in one chair, one on the other's lap, and kissed -- not just a peck on cheek, a bit more like making out.  To be honest, I was a little -- flustered? -- at first, but I told myself that of course this is just what would be natural for them.  But as other straight people have said here, it does just take a little getting used to something you've not been accustomed to seeing before.

It being dark that night, I don't think anyone could see the kiss from the street, so I didn't worry about that.  I was always being called "paranoid" in those days, pretty conservative, although I was quite open-minded about gay issues -- my paranoia then was far more that someone would see the people on the porch smoking a joint, which after all was illegal, not that someone would see them kissing.  Men kissing?  I supported it "intellectually" but in my "gut" it just took getting used to the first time and then it was no big deal. 

Now, I should add that we all were suburban-raised kids and moved into the city for various reasons, one of which was to escape the conservatism of the suburbs where no doubt men kissing in 1975 would not have been accepted.  And I must also add that even Capitol Hill wasn't "free" enough for most of these gay men who eventually left town to move to San Francisco, so I lost touch with them and moved to the east coast myself.  I regret that gay people couldn't then have been more a part of "normal society" and felt the necessity to "ghettoize" themselves, because I wish they'd been able to continue being my friends.   

[Poohbunn]

Does anyone think the kiss on BBM will help to change things?  Especially now that it won "Best Kiss" on the MTV awards.  I didn't see the award show but I hope they showed a clip of the kiss!

Pooh