Character Analysis of Ennis Del Mar

[janjo]

Just to jump in here. I have this kind of theory that human nature doesn't change much through the years. We all think it does, and that everyone thinks differently to their forefathers, but really, nah.....................

[royandronnie]

A couple very interesting pages…except that they seem to be all about Alma, here in the Ennis thread…

[garyd]

A couple very interesting pages…except that they seem to be all about Alma, here in the Ennis thread…

We are analyzing the character of Ennis Del Mar three time to coincide with the story of BBM being told three times.
We are currently in that part of the story that includes Alma as, well,Alma.   
Alma is also in the first part of the story as a mixed up sheep.
She is in the third part as a grub.

[CANSTANDIT]

A couple very interesting pages…except that they seem to be all about Alma, here in the Ennis thread…

yeah, I noticed, Char..I was expecting the Hand of Mod any minute..

[Desecra]

I think that the original point (back somewhere) was about comparing Ennis to the other characters, and it seems to have been Alma's turn.    The same questions about what Alma should have done, or had the ability to do can be applied to Ennis - was he really any more enlightened than her?   I don't think so.   He knew what was happening with Jack, physically, but he didn't have much more idea about what it meant than Alma did.   And of course, he SHOULD have educated himself about homosexuality and homophobia, but he was up against the same barriers as Alma - even more so, because he had such a strong reason to avoid even thinking too much about the subject. 

I think it's easy to look back at a time and place with from our current viewpoint and imagine that the characters should/would have challlenged the status quo - especially for the people here who often have challenged the status quo in their own time and place.  But I don't think it's so easy at the time when you're too close to the problem.  Ennis would have had to have had a feeling that homosexuality was "right" and homophobia was wrong before he challenged it.   Even to "educate" himself (if he had the time, money, other resources) he'd have had to see the need for education.     It's not so always to obvious as it is from the outside.   If I lived in a time and place where slavery was the norm, I like to think I'd have fought against it, but I may (if I owned slaves) just have been happy to think that my slaves were treated better than next door's slaves, or (if I was a slave) just tried to get from day to day without mishap - even something blatantly, obviously questionable at a later date, might not seem so obviously questionable at the time.   

[royandronnie]

As far as that goes, my feeling is that none of the characters likely ever heard much in their media about homosexuality, unless it was about some preacher curing it, or AIDS. I don't live in a particularly repressed area, and I've read about homosexuality for as long as I can remember, yet it was not until 3 years ago that I'd ever heard of Stonewall. I would imagine that rumor, innuendo and the occasional lynching or gay-bashing would be about all the Brokeback characters would ever have had the opportunity, in Riverton or Childress, to learn about it. I feel quite sure none of them ever heard anything about being gay that was not deeply negative. And I'm also sure Ennis would never have sought out information about it; before Jack's death he refused to admit it applied to either of them (despite accusation) and after Jack's death, while he may have accepted his love, at least, I don't believe he would have exposed himself by seeking out books on the subject. We know he didn't read anyway. I think he would have listened with more than ordinary attentiveness to anything he heard on TV, but again, I wonder how much the local TV stations near Riverton would carry on the subject, even now, and you know Ennis never had cable.

Ennis was far too deeply shellshocked to stand up for himself, which is of course what caused all the problem.

[janjo]

The USA is so different to the UK. I can remember speculation, news, discussion, scandals, and whether film or music stars were or weren't gay going on for the whole of my life. Scandals about politicians, Stonewall, Outrage, the works. Then AIDS and what that meant, laws concerning the age of consent, Peter Tatchell standing for parliament and then losing to a man who ultimately turned out to be bi sexual.
There was no lack of information or protest here.

[Ministering angel]

A couple very interesting pages…except that they seem to be all about Alma, here in the Ennis thread…

We are analyzing the character of Ennis Del Mar three time to coincide with the story of BBM being told three times.
We are currently in that part of the story that includes Alma as, well,Alma.   
Alma is also in the first part of the story as a mixed up sheep.
She is in the third part as a grub.

Who's a grub?

Aaaaaaactually, Alma is in the first part as Alma, and in the second part as Alma, and in the third part as a slashy cut. A form of "the wet gap", as Ennis so charmingly seems to view it.

[Ministering angel]

The USA is so different to the UK. I can remember speculation, news, discussion, scandals, and whether film or music stars were or weren't gay going on for the whole of my life. Scandals about politicians, Stonewall, Outrage, the works. Then AIDS and what that meant, laws concerning the age of consent, Peter Tatchell standing for parliament and then losing to a man who ultimately turned out to be bi sexual.
There was no lack of information or protest here.

Didn't you say that Harvey Milk wasn't much known about in the UK? I heard about Harvey a long time ago down here in backwater Oz. I think the point is that most people anywhere really only home in on stuff which is of interest to them, and then only if they actually are exposed to it and not averse to finding things out. Ennis didn't see himself as queer so would not have taken any notice of gay issues, and Alma likely didn't want to contemplate that she was married to such a man. Don't forget that Ennis wanted to curse Lureen for letting Jack die on the dirt road (a not-too-veiled ref to anal sex and by implication, homosexuality) as if it were Lureen's duty to keep her man on the straight and narrow. I feel that Alma might have had similar feelings - that her husband's sexual proclivities were a bad reflection on her own abilities to keep her man straightened up and flying right. Why would she have any desire to contemplate that?

[garyd]

A couple very interesting pages…except that they seem to be all about Alma, here in the Ennis thread…

We are analyzing the character of Ennis Del Mar three time to coincide with the story of BBM being told three times.
We are currently in that part of the story that includes Alma as, well,Alma.   
Alma is also in the first part of the story as a mixed up sheep.
She is in the third part as a grub.

Who's a grub?

Aaaaaaactually, Alma is in the first part as Alma, and in the second part as Alma, and in the third part as a slashy cut. A form of "the wet gap", as Ennis so charmingly seems to view it.

Oh, my bad.  I thought in the third regurgitation Alma was represented by the grubs the bear discovers after rolling the log.
But the bear and the grubs are symbolic of the "motel scene" in the second burp, right?
And Alma morphs into a "slashy cut".
If a slashy cut becomes infected does one run the risk of contracting "beaver fever"?
I forget.
I'm obviously not paying close enough attention.
Someone needs to construct a spread sheet for me so I can handily cross-reference all of these connected symbols.

With the same story being told three times AND with all three having been transcribed onto the
continuous loop of a mobius strip, one can understand, I hope, if at times I
lose my equilibrium.

[janjo]

The USA is so different to the UK. I can remember speculation, news, discussion, scandals, and whether film or music stars were or weren't gay going on for the whole of my life. Scandals about politicians, Stonewall, Outrage, the works. Then AIDS and what that meant, laws concerning the age of consent, Peter Tatchell standing for parliament and then losing to a man who ultimately turned out to be bi sexual.
There was no lack of information or protest here.

Didn't you say that Harvey Milk wasn't much known about in the UK? I heard about Harvey a long time ago down here in backwater Oz. I think the point is that most people anywhere really only home in on stuff which is of interest to them, and then only if they actually are exposed to it and not averse to finding things out. Ennis didn't see himself as queer so would not have taken any notice of gay issues, and Alma likely didn't want to contemplate that she was married to such a man. Don't forget that Ennis wanted to curse Lureen for letting Jack die on the dirt road (a not-too-veiled ref to anal sex and by implication, homosexuality) as if it were Lureen's duty to keep her man on the straight and narrow. I feel that Alma might have had similar feelings - that her husband's sexual proclivities were a bad reflection on her own abilities to keep her man straightened up and flying right. Why would she have any desire to contemplate that?

I did say that, because I hadn't heard of Harvey Milk until I came to this site. But I do have to disagree that people only home in on things they are interested in. Because I did see and hear all of the things I mentioned, but until I saw Brokeback Mountain I wasn't aware at all that I was interested in any way in gay rights, or what gay relationships were all about. I have always been interested in politics, and never liked to see people disadvantaged, but formerly, gay issues were just part of the news to me, and not an interest as they are now.

[Desecra]

Don't you think that gay rights could have bypassed Ennis (and Alma) in the same way?

And I don't think they really think of gay rights as having anything much to do with them.   Ennis doesn't think of himself as gay, and Alma doesn't seem to be sure if he's gay either (and wouldn't be looking out for his rights, under the circumstances). 

[CANSTANDIT]

It's true..nowhere do we get the idea that Ennis has ever awakened to his gay ol' self..although some may interpret the sink-peeing as a protest of sorts.

In the prologue it appears he's become 'one of those guys', more or less,but I'm not sure he recognizes that. I think he is in survival mode..Jack is the only thing that makes his day bearable. AP speaks of him 'moving thru the desolation of the prologue.' Or, 'when you don't got nothin, you don't need nothin', from the film. I think he's way past needing a label. It would never stay on-he's too broken in terms of the world out there. His life is internal, now, completely emeshed with his sense of Jack.

IMO, natch.

[fofol]

Sink peeing is a practical matter: you don't have to leave the kitchen to pee, and - if you're agile and accurate - you can pee and reheat your coffee at the same time.  Truly a time-saving procedure, multi-tasking before there was a popular name for it.  Plus, you don't have to walk all the way to the bathroom.

[Dal]

Yah.... You just want to make sure and get your coffee cup out of the sink before you pee, not after.  Like anything else, you have to pay attention to detail.