Character Analysis of Ennis Del Mar

[Dal]

~the Alma's of the world probably took a pretty dim view of "free love", hippies, and anti-war demonstrators.

And queers, you might add.   no 'probably' about it -- hippies and queers  were thoroughly despised by many/most traditional Amiricans.  The more visible "those people" became in the media, the greater the contempt and hatred.  Johnny Carson (most recognizable mainstream comedian in USA then), a few years after '63: "It used to be the love that dared not speak it's name.  Now,  I wish it would just shut up." 

Janjo -- Victim was a British film (hence a priori without interest), with no stars (that anybody in Wyoming had ever heard of), and with a non-traditional, taboo, and offensive subject (here, anyway) as a recurrent element.. If it played in Wyoming in the early '60s, I'll eat my cowboy hats.   Kinsey, as you may recall if you have picked up those odd books, would not tell her anything much about Ennis/Jack;  not sure at all that it would have eased her pain, fear or homophobia.   McCarthy hearings.... did they actually convey any information? other that that the government was crawling with subversive queers.   

At the end of the day, of course, what she did or didn't do depends on her, and we don't know her, do we.  We don't, for instance, know how much like the young janjo she is!  I was just trying to give a flavor of the context which surrounds her actions here,  and which may not be familiar to people not from the Land of the Brave.  Or even just bicoastal urbanites!

[garyd]

And queers, you might add.

 

I did add,didn't I?   

Or even just bicoastal urbanites!

LOL, well,
"I am what I am"
("and what I am is an illusion?)
no,... corn fed and lone star bred

[Desecra]

Jwm, I agree about the sex "she hated".  I imagine that in the beginning she thought it was just a preference of her husband's that she'd have to put up with, but some time after that kiss and the fishing trips or maybe even later, she'd have started to realise why he preferred it.    That would have been pretty unpalatable whatever her degree of homophobia - the feeling that he was mentally dewomanising her.    She doesn't count it in the list of resentments, but it must be there, under the surface.  She ends up carrying the shame for both of them - remember that divorcing was frowned on then, too.   From the outside it looks as if she's the one who can't stay faithful and divorces her loyal husband so she can run off with the richer grocer.   I always imagine that must rankle.

Also, while she was Ennis, working long hours (did she take the kids to work with her?   I don't think it's addressed in the book, but people did in those days sometimes, and working mothers were also frowned on a bit) and bringing up kids without modern conveniences, she probably didn't have time and energy to read and research.

Anyway, as we're on Ennis's thread, we might as well say that he should have educated himself as much as Alma should have - of course they should have done, but it wouldn't have been easy for either of them.    They'd have had to get a grasp on the "problem" for the start, which they didn't really have (where was Ennis going to find out about straight men who fall for their coworkers?  It doesn't happen here..), the detachment to realise that they needed to reconsider their moral stance on the subject and the resources to educate themselves.     I think somebody that could do that might be the exception, rather than the rule.    Even Jack remains a little homophobic himself despite his greater access to resources (travelling, money, "friends") - I don't see him being proud of his sexuality.   Why give Alma the responsiblity to educate herself and not Ennis?  I know there's a view that she should have been more understanding, but actually she pretty much facilitated his relationship with Jack by keeping quiet about it, not stopping the fishing trips, not insisting Ennis got a steady job - she even acquiesed to the anal sex, and inadvertently gave Ennis an excuse to stop sex altogether on the one time she did speak up.    Ennis has no reason at all to feel short-changed.   That's part of his illusion. 

[janjo]

I don't think I'm saying that she should have educated herself, or that Ennis should have done either, just that we should not assume that because this happened in the past, and because they lived in a remote area, that they couldn't or wouldn't have done.
As we said in the original TOTW, I didn't come from a wealthy, liberal family, we were very poor, either living in farm tied cottages or local authority housing, my parents had no education and my father although highly intelligent, could barely read or write, my own schooling was poor, and I was bullied mercilessly, (which is maybe how come I end up here), but if I found out, and to a reasonably intelligent, if financially dependent woman like Alma, it would with the build up of knowledge, the kissing, the twice a year fishing trips, the desperation to get away with Jack, the giving up jobs to be with Jack, and, as jwm so succinctly points out, sex from the rear, be pretty obvious, then I would have had to find out what it was I was dealing with, and I think Alma may well have been capable of that too.
I would have found out about it, and then done exactly what Alma did, found myself someone else.

Alma showed quite a bit of nous really when you look at the information we are given. She accepted the anal sex, because she did love Ennis, and because she needed him to keep her and the girls, she said nothing to him about what was going on with him and Jack for the same reason, she cultivated Monroe because she saw that she might need him, and divorced Ennis, as Des points out, at a time when such a thing was an utter scandal.

She was quite a brave and resourceful lady really.

[CANSTANDIT]

Does basic human nature change that much? Would a person who is curious then not still be curious now, if that is their nature?

No, I don't think it does, Jess...but knowledge increases regularly. And curiosity is always fed on the sly,when people can't get the knowledge mainstream.

I see Alma as pretty much a woman of her time..alot of woman would accept  behaviors that might seem abhorant to others, in order to retain the marriage relationship, ie,doing for the relationship what you wouldn't care do just for the spouse. It happens today, still, of course. Many people still hold onto that bond for dear life. It's a social identity that as I've said in the past, insulates  one from questions, concerns, doubt. Hence, closeting. It makes alot of sense in this light.  One is a husband or wife, and unless you're a celebrity, there is a kind of unspoken, 'do not trespass'. So long as you toe that line,  all is good-even if it's not.  Its exactly the kind of indentity rightly sought by discriminated-against individuals, like gay couples, who  are finally, FINALLY, apparently starting to achieve it. That acceptance of society, and being left alone to flourish in the privacy of your primary relationship is the dream, isn't it? It's what men and women have generally had forever.

Alma'd be unlikely to give that up, along with her sense of obligation and also desire, to have and raise kids with a man by her side.

In Alma's time, the flipping would be under the category of 'nobody's business' but Ennis and Alma's. And it would unlikely be talked about.

[janjo]

But Alma did give that up, she got divorced and re-married to Munroe. As Des says, divorce was the most terrible scandal in those days, I remember when my aunt did it after her husband left her and went to Australia with another woman, and she was still in the wrong, but God knows why. It was the most terrible shame, but Alma did it. Her primary relationship just wasn't working out.
She was a woman of her time, but she was also pretty tough when the survival of herself and her children was concerned.

[CANSTANDIT]

No arguments, she eventually did give it up-but for another insular relationship: She married Monroe.

I think though, Jack Nasty was the real final straw. She's not really raging at him over lost jobs in the kitchen-it's really about Jack. So to me, the divorce was a bit of the lesser of two evils for Alma, if you will.  She could live with having to work, because her husband couldn't  cover the bills, if she sensed she was loved by him, I think; It appears to me she was from at least a working class upbringing, too; what she ultimately could not take was what she put together starting with that embrace she glimpsed.

It's hard to say how she'd have reacted to another woman as a threat-would she forgive Ennis more for that? I think so, probably. She can't compete with another man-and knowing about Jack alters her fundamental understanding of Ennis-or puts him into an incomprehensible category. That would not be true if he had cheated on her with another woman, I don't think.

But yes, she did take her life in hand, ultimately.  (I guess this is really OT...)

OH, and the 70's divorce in the US was not nearly so scandalous as someone coming out would've been, I'm pretty sure.

[janjo]

What was wrong with Alma being married to Monroe? Insular? Why?
Isn't that what Jack and Ennis would have done if they had been allowed?
No one makes anyone get married if they don't want to.
It certainly isn't for everyone.
Some people much prefer thair independence and multiple partners.
But in a different world Ennis would have married Jack and stayed faithful.
That's not insular, it's finding true love.

Mind you Alma probably married Monroe for security as well as well as being fond of him, but hey, marriage like life isn't perfect.

[CANSTANDIT]

What was wrong with Alma being married to Monroe? Insular? Why?

I just meant she's going from one marriage to another..nothing more.  She needs to retain that security-her bitterness towards Ennis tells me her feelings for him were not really resolved.  My my point is, that social identity is protective of people, for example, in closeted situations. Alma probably  stayed in with Ennis probably much longer than she might have. (I'm not saying she was closeted, that was just an example.) Marriage used to be purely a practical situation..

It has nothing to do with any value judgment on  marriage per se. I'm glad people marry for love today, and not just as an arrangement.

Isn't that what Jack and Ennis would have done if they had been allowed?

I don't know..Ennis was against it, wasn't he? And they could've tried to go to Denver. Jack didn't push it, but it would be interesting to know what he'd have done. Unrealistic, though, since they were both men of their time, and the idea of men marrying was way out of their scope of experience.

 

No one makes anyone get married if they don't want to.

Unless dad has a shotgun..(just kidding  .)

It certainly isn't for everyone.
Some people much prefer thair independence and multiple partners.
But in a different world Ennis would have married Jack and stayed faithful.
That's not insular, it's finding true love.

Sometimes not multiple partners, either....

What I mean is marriage is also a safe-haven;that is why there are Brokeback marriages, even with the partners know the score-or it is a way to stay in denial, like with Ennis. No one questions when people are married. Assumptions are made, which we now know today, may not be true. I wasn't attacking marriage, Jess. Not sure where you were getting that. I'm just trying to be objective about it.

Mind you Alma probably married Monroe for security as well as well as being fond of him, but hey, marriage like life isn't perfect.

Of course, I'd wager it was mostly security. It appears to be she harbored feelings for Ennis afterwards, judging by her bitterness.

[janjo]

I just wanted to make the point that I wasn't suggesting Jack and Ennis would have married in Wyoming in 1963, I meant in an ideal world where there was no stigma, and no problems whatsoever with gay relationships, marriages etc.

[Dal]

~Marriage used to be purely a practical situation..~ I'm glad people marry for love today, and not just as an arrangement.

This kills me!  Studies of ancient history have revealed that

1)  People did marry for love -- even as long ago as 1970!
2)  Practicality plays a surprisingly (apparently) large role in many people's 'calculus' regarding whom and when to marry -- even as recently as right now!

[CANSTANDIT]

~Marriage used to be purely a practical situation..~ I'm glad people marry for love today, and not just as an arrangement.

This kills me!  Studies of ancient history have revealed that

1)  People did marry for love -- even as long ago as 1970!
2)  Practicality plays a surprisingly (apparently) large role in many people's 'calculus' regarding whom and when to marry -- even as recently as right now!

I wasn't referring to the recent past, Dal; and yes, I realize there are lots of reasons people marry-thankfully love is high on the list in modern times. It wasn't always.

and hey, Mod dude, what's with the mocking tone??

[garyd]

There exist many articles on the history of marriage
This is one that I recommend.
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/ATLAS_EN/html/history_of_marriage_in_western.html

[janjo]

People have always married for practical reasons and for love too. Or not.
It is a reasonable institution, but, without marriage what do people who love each other do?
What do gay folks who fall in love with each other do in reasonably tolerant societies?
They pair up and live together, supporting and caring for each other often for many years, just as heterosexuals do.
The piece of paper is important, but is neither necessary, or a guarantee of happiness or fidelity.

When women were unable because of social pressures and circumstances to support themselves and their children then they had not much choice but to find themselves a man.
If they could find one they loved, then that was a good thing.
Men were trying to ensure without success in many cases that the children they were working so hard to provide for, and to leave their money and property to, were their own.
It was a two way street.

One of the reasons people have always married has always been for love though, and if that wasn't available to them then they would often deny societies rules to be together, like Earl and Rich.

[Dal]

I wasn't referring to the recent past, Dal;

Oh, sorry!  You had just been talking about Alma, so I thought that was the frame of reference.

and hey, Mod dude, what's with the mocking tone??

Oops, sorry again -- wrong hat.  Not mod hat for that post, or this one.  And I apologize for the tone.  I find a lot of overestimation of improvement in various things, from the past to the present.  E.G. acceptance of homosexuality.  Half-full vs half-empty, to be sure;  but the halves are unevenly distributed, regonally and class-wise and culturally.  I have heard a lot of "That was awful, thank God people think so differently today," - but many, many don't.  So, re marriage, sorry if I mistakenly thought you were condemning our grandparents, and congratulating our contemporaries!