The Structure of the Movie and Film Editing

[Ministering angel]

Thanks for the clarification. BvF and S&I it is then.

NB. "virtually" was my word.

[Lance]

Okay; ''virtually'' was a great addition, much better than leaving the statement as a bare absolute.

[Brokeback_1]

Where can we discuss Lance?

Is there a thread for macho, tough-guy gay sexuality as applied to DCF threads??

<g>

However I have a question about the structure of the film, which may or may not have been gone over before. Does everyone think the 'condiments' scene was oddly placed? jarring even? It's the one scene in  the film which looks as if they had trouble placing it, which makes me certain the buzz about it originally being preceded by a scene where Jack unexpectedly arrived to take Ennis off to an unplanned trip up to brokeback is true.

[Ministering angel]

Not really. We have a series of scenes alternating between Jack and Ennis, showing snippets of their lives. It fits in there okay plus introduces Monroe plus the idea of Ennis and his attitude to work which he drops for Jack and then later picks up again and uses as a reason for not seeing Jack that last August, DAMN AND BLAST HIM!!!

[Sandy]

It also serves to set up Ennis' priorities about his work versus Alma's. She shouldn't be having a job, but should be looking after the kids. It's the thin edge of the wedge in their relationship.

[rosa]

But I do think the "Ketchup" snippet is a misplaced attempt at comedy - seems quite gratuitous to me.

[Lance]

But I do think the "Ketchup" snippet is a misplaced attempt at comedy - seems quite gratuitous to me.

Annie actually referred to the 'condiments' scene in the Bookworm radio interview in the context of a discussion about how unsophisticated Jack and Ennis are. So it would seem that it is put there for demonstrating that very thing, rather than being for comedy, even though we did get a laugh out of it. As did Annie. She laughs while saying the word 'condiments'. But this seems to belong more in ^Dislikes About the Film^ than in discussion of film structure.

[Lance]

The film is so clean, except for the sound...it is hard to find fault.
One thing I find interesting is the way Ang Lee does the zoom outs:
The closer J & E draw together, in certain scenes, the more he pulls away, kind of in a teasing fashion, as if he is protecting their privacy.Perhaps he is just avoiding gratuitiousness.

I am thinking of the followng scenes:
The greeting from afar, in the 'blue parka' trip; the only tell we are given is Jack's naked desire as he sees Ennis emerge rather hunkily from the truck.
We see them obscured by tree branches, then the horse hooves sinking in the mysterious moss; and then the river rushing close up. Very erotic, that.

And the zoom out of the river jump that stays there, doesn't pull in; we have our implication with the 'jumping in with both feet' into the affair, perhaps. Then as things get phsyical after the Earl revelation, the curtain is again pulled down on their tenderness.

I find it interesting how both subtle and obvious his implications are.

This is wandering into symbolic interpretation of story content. What is the film structure here, the edited relationship and order of scenes? I'm thinking that this topic should be retitled, expanded to allow camera technique to be analysed perhaps, but it should still not involve finding symbols and interpreting them and speculating on Ang Lee's internal mental state during filming of the scene . Let's focus on what is materially there. Interpretation we have out the wazoo in many other topics, a point I have noted in this thread before.

[CANSTANDIT]

The film is so clean, except for the sound...it is hard to find fault.
One thing I find interesting is the way Ang Lee does the zoom outs:
The closer J & E draw together, in certain scenes, the more he pulls away, kind of in a teasing fashion, as if he is protecting their privacy.Perhaps he is just avoiding gratuitiousness.

I am thinking of the followng scenes:
The greeting from afar, in the 'blue parka' trip; the only tell we are given is Jack's naked desire as he sees Ennis emerge rather hunkily from the truck.
We see them obscured by tree branches, then the horse hooves sinking in the mysterious moss; and then the river rushing close up. Very erotic, that.

And the zoom out of the river jump that stays there, doesn't pull in; we have our implication with the 'jumping in with both feet' into the affair, perhaps. Then as things get phsyical after the Earl revelation, the curtain is again pulled down on their tenderness.

I find it interesting how both subtle and obvious his implications are.

This is wandering into symbolic interpretation of story content. What is the film structure here, the edited relationship and order of scenes? I'm thinking that this topic should be retitled, expanded to allow camera technique to be analysed perhaps, but it should still not involve finding symbols and interpreting them and speculating on Ang Lee's internal mental state during filming of the scene . Let's focus on what is materially there. Interpretation we have out the wazoo in many other topics, a point I have noted in this thread before.

I deleted my post. I agree about the camera technique; it would be helpful. However, difficult to discuss the structure without the impact it is having or the goal we might see. (See past posts...) and virtually impossible to not include a the directors's vision as a component, in most film analyses.

[john john]

I'm sure this is old news but one of my favorite cuts in the movie is the one that occurs onThanksgiving night right after Ennis gets beaten, he's down on the road then bam! we're back on Brokeback along with Gustavo's tender music. The contrast IMO is stunning and says volumes on Ennis state of mind that night.

[Lance]

I deleted my post. I agree about the camera technique; it would be helpful. However, difficult to discuss the structure without the impact it is having or the goal we might see. (See past posts...) and virtually impossible to not include a the directors's vision as a component, in most film analyses.

Maybe [how can one come to solid conclusions about a director's vision?], but we do not need to be interpreting the content yet again under the guise of discussing the impact it is having; the primrose path so heavily trampled appears along that line.

[CANSTANDIT]

'Guise'. sounds like your implying sneakiness-  I'll ignore that....
OT for one more minute:I personally would  like to see the camera technique added, or maybe this would be a good idea for the new thread suggestions you wanted.
Thoughts? I am not sure we would got a lot of mileage on its own-we probably would need to merge it, because some ideas cross over editing an cinematography-they often drive the other.

(wouldn't mind a return visit from 'mellow' Lance now and again...)

[Ministering angel]

Can I just have a ruling here, please ump?

If we take the first Cassie scene where she grabs Ennis's hand and drags him up for a dance then he talks about castrating calves, it seems that this scene is linked with FNIT and the bar conversation at the start. There are parallels between the scenes and it's my belief that we are given the opportunity to analyse one scene through the filter of another. This is clearly part of film structure.

But the castration talk is, perhaps, a comment on the talk about their fathers in the first bar scene. It implies that the fathers symbolically castrated their sons. This is symbolism.

So where does one discuss the links in a full and meaningful fashion? If the elements are split into separate threads then the cohesion of the argument is lost and the cohesion of the scenes is downplayed.

[Sandy]

If you can frame your proposal in terms of the structure of the film and the film editing, then it belongs here.

[CANSTANDIT]

If you can frame your proposal in terms of the structure of the film and the film editing, then it belongs here.

Lance/Sandy:
I really think this needs to be defined from the moderation POV-it is unrealistic to study 'structure and editing' without looking at 'content', as Lance mentioned. Tecnnique, as least in this case, does not exist to perpetuate itself; it is used as it is used for a reason, directly related to content,and vision of the filmmaker.
I don't see any post yet in here that does not address content in some way, case in point: the condiments scene above.

I've done some studying re; film myself, and I really think this is too narrow an apporoach.  I think we need to open this thread up and expand what it encompasses.