Alma & Lureen

[CANSTANDIT]

i wonder whos choice it was to name the first child after Alma?
ive heard of boys being named after there dad but not girls after there mum
do you think ennis had a choice in Juniors name? or alma decided and ennis didn't have a choice?
i know its very picky, but i just thought id mention it

Good question..I wonder if it was Ennis, actually. This is a bit of a deep topic, I think, symbolically. I wish I could spend more time right now/ what do you think, marz?

[Desecra]

Ennis was hoping for a boy, wasn't he?   Maybe they'd agreed to name the first of each sex after themselves, or maybe Ennis wasn't bothered about the name if it wasn't a boy. 

[Ministering angel]

Ennis chose the name -- ".....when Alma Jr., as he called his daughter, was born...."  It's my opinion that Ennis was trying to perpetuate the relationship with his mother. (Here we delve into Symbolism & Imagery.)  If Ennis is cognate with Aeneas then AP's choice of the name Alma for his wife is in keeping with Aeneas being the son of Venus, worshiped by the Romans sometimes as alma Venus, Venus the Nurturer. So Ennis, orphaned at a youngish age, has chosen a wife to replace his mother, not so much a sexual partner as a carer. By naming his daughter Alma Jr. he is perpetuating the line of female carers. In the prologue we learn that he may have to stay with his married daughter. We don't know if it's Junior or not but it maybe doesn't matter. It still means that Ennis knows he has a home to go to in time of need. The fact that he called Jack after his divorce kind of fits with this; he'd lost his home and his carer once again.

[moondance]

I didn't identify with the women so much because I could relate so much more to the story of the two lovers who can't be together.

Also, Alma got the life she always wanted (with Monroe) in the end. And when I saw the way they (Ennis and Alma) lived (the scenes of "marital bliss" in the messy house, screaming kids, never enough money etc.) , I just got so depressed on Ennis' behalf... because I think it is what SHE wanted, not he. She bought into a silly little girls' dream, and I am way too jaded and bitter to understand that way of thinking... so I simply could not identify with Alma. I admire her for having the courage to leave Ennis though.

I always think I *should* feel more empathy for the women, but really, the story of Jack and Ennis (but especially Jack's) just overrides everything else for me.

[Ministering angel]

Hi, Moondance, and welcome.  I don't think many of us feel as much sympathy for Alma and Lureen as they deserved, simply because Jack and Ennis's story is so overwhelmingly tragic that there's not much room left for feeling sorry for their wives. Not at first, anyway.

[CANSTANDIT]

Moondance, I know what you mean....the story of J and E just looms so much larger than anyone else's hurts. It's a real tribute to Michelle Williams that Alma's plight impacts audiences the way it does. I find it interesting how much more empathy I have for Ennis reading the scene in the SS, than I do in the film. The visual of him clutching her and threatening her is hard to get past-but then we know he is well and fully trapped at that moment and is responding to an impossible situation-being outed by his ex-wife under extremely stressful circumstances. There was no way for her to respond sympathetically,a fter what she'd lives thru-yet, that is what Ennis needed from someone. There is just no character in the story he can turn to, except Jack-and even that goes south in both scenes where it gets addressed: In the Reunion, where Ennis's doubts leave Jack angry; and in the film, the 'why don't you find someplace new' scene, where Jack does not alleviate Ennis's fears, but actually makes them worse.

At that time and place, there was just no response that worked, was there? If they didn't move forward, they were closeted; it they did, they might get bashed.

[euphoricair]

I didn't identify with the women so much because I could relate so much more to the story of the two lovers who can't be together.

Also, Alma got the life she always wanted (with Monroe) in the end. And when I saw the way they (Ennis and Alma) lived (the scenes of "marital bliss" in the messy house, screaming kids, never enough money etc.) , I just got so depressed on Ennis' behalf... because I think it is what SHE wanted, not he. She bought into a silly little girls' dream, and I am way too jaded and bitter to understand that way of thinking... so I simply could not identify with Alma. I admire her for having the courage to leave Ennis though.

I always think I *should* feel more empathy for the women, but really, the story of Jack and Ennis (but especially Jack's) just overrides everything else for me.

Hi Moondance!
I don't think that Alma brought Ennis in a little silly girly dream, I think more likely Ennis brought her in his nightmare. Why a silly girl's dream by the way? Alma simply wanted living whit the boy she loves, Isn't nothing stupid about that. Instead she's trapped with a no-loving no-understanding man. In this story we can see in what way the Destructive Rural Homophobia ruin four life, not only two. Is a fault of society but the whole society pay the price. Besides, like you, I admire Alma too. She get the courage to change her life. Lureen not have that courage, she must have his own issues, beyond that successful business woman facade. She is similar to Jack and Ennis in a way, I think.

[suelyblu]

The only woman I felt sorry for was Cassie. When Ennis was on the mountain with Jack, Ennis I feel treated Jack and his relationship as almost a holiday romance , just something that.....happened.When he married Alma he didn't realize how much he was  "into" Jack ...BUT......he did by the time Cassie came on the scene.No one could take his place in his heart. As said before Alma remarried and started a new family. Laureen I believe was a  "little rich girl" with a "I want it (Jack) and I'm going to have it" attitude and was disappointed when Jack didn't turn out to be the "cowboy stud" she was hoping for so turned herself into a female J.D Newsom and was only interested in doing deals and making money.

[CANSTANDIT]

Great insights, suely.

I particularly like your point about Lureen..she became apparently a workaholic-which we know is a form of escape.

I find it interesting too, that Ennis continue to try to be with women, after realizing how he felt for Jack; and after his marriage failed. The math apparently failed him, too. 

[ryrycutiepie]

Great insights, suely.

I particularly like your point about Lureen..she became apparently a workaholic-which we know is a form of escape.

I find it interesting too, that Ennis continue to try to be with women, after realizing how he felt for Jack; and after his marriage failed. The math apparently failed him, too. 

I think Ennis tried to be with women for several reasons: it was socialy acceptable, it was easy because he was attractive, it made him feel more manly, and helped him to compensate for the way he was around Jack. Most of all, I think it was becuase he really was attracted to women. Just a short aside to my personal life. I'm a 22 yr old. male and had a short romance with what is now a close friend. He had a history of sleeping with over 20 women and still dates them, but what we had is very real, and it's evident in the way we interact still, not that we mess around. My point is that I think his attraction to women was genuine and so was Jack's to a lesser extent. It's also what makes the story so great. Although he liked women, nothing could feel the giant gap that Jack had filled for him.

His relationsihps with women failed because he was a horrible communicator, could not express his emotions, and because he wasn't over Jack still.

[fofol]

Lureen as a grief-stricken widow is something that I find more than a little bizarre! To my eyes, Lureen is not presented (book or film) as a sympathetic character - she is actually shown as caring more about her business than her own child's development! - so I have always assumed that her emotions were all about Lureen: i.e., she's not getting weepy over Jack during the phone call with Ennis, but about her assumption that Jack's heterosexual need for her was essentially unfounded - she did not have such tight control of her marriage as she thought she had.  Please remember that when we're introduced to her, she's shown as a Texas Princess - daddy's got money and nothing's too good for his little girl - barrel ponies (purchase and upkeep) and barrel riding lessons cost lots of money, and don't forget the fancy, matching riding outfit (can we assume there's only one? not realistically)...  It is only after Jack dies that she pays enough attention to him to realize that he was never hers.
Some will sympathize with her because her husband had a lifelong affair with one man and sex with other men when he could get around to it (and afford it), but bear in mind, a character's persona doesn't become sympathetic because we can show sympathy for a problem she's had...

[royandronnie]

Lureen certainly was a. spoiled and b. bossy--taught to be that way by her doting father and weak mother. I don't agree that movie Lureen--story Lureen is a different matter--cared more about her business than her child, though: remember that before the 73 camping scene she's reminding Jack that HE hasn't called the teacher, and Jack passes the buck. She then agrees without a fight to do what they had apparently agreed he would do. What I see is a busy woman trying to make sure her child is getting the help he needs.

Don't forget also the THX scene: Lureen is delighted when Jack stands up to LD, and silently says, "see? that's Daddy behaving like a MAN" to Bobby. Granted that this may have as much to do with LD as Jack for her, it's clear that movie Lureen wants her man to be in charge, not uncommon among strong women. She'd have been better off married to Ennis if that's what she wanted…

I'd say it's also probable that Lureen retreated into the "hard-headed businesswoman" mode, to which she already had predisposition, as her marriage became more and more a sham. I don't know if she ever really loved Jack, as movie Alma loved Ennis. Perhaps, given the way the relationship started, it was mostly lust. But I think she was confused and yes, angry that Jack slipped away from her, and whatever its cause, that's real pain she shows when Ennis makes his Brokeback confession. Was it just a deeply stung ego? Or was Jack kind enough to her, as he was generally kind, to have left some love behind? She's not without faults, but it hits her hard when she realizes Jack loved someone else, and not her.

[Desecra]

We don't know an awful lot about her in the short story - only what Jack tells Ennis, and what she says on the phone.    Lureen pretending the kid is OK - I read that little story as a metaphor for Jack and Ennis's relationship, rather than about Lureen.  But even what it says about Lureen isn't that terrible - she may be in denial about her child's problems.  I agree that we probably don't know enough about her to make her a fully sympathetic character, but she is clearly wronged.   I suppose that's one of the "points" of the story - the wide-reaching negative effects of homophobia.

[royandronnie]

I seem to have gotten it wrong--Jack asks Lureen if SHE has called the teacher, she says, I thought you were going to, and then agrees to. Obviously, it's been too long since the last time I watched Brokeback! It's kind of an interesting little moment--Lureen kind of distracted, perhaps trying to distract herself, and Jack flustered, anxious to get going, and yet there's still some attempt, I think, between them at trying to connect. Not romantically, but a bit desperately, trying not to offend each other (hear the way their voices trail off when they say rather confrontational things), trying to ensure something is accomplished before Jack disappears.

In the story she seems to be wholly unsympathetic, and we can only guess why. Even her suggestion that Ennis get in touch with Jack's parents seems almost bored, like good manners and no more. In the movie she appears more complex, and clearly the tears during the phone call are meant to make us understand that, while she wasn't as soft and vulnerable as young Alma, she did care for Jack, and realizing that "the fishin buddy or the huntin buddy" whose name she had to be prompted to remember was the key to all the unhappy mysteries surrounding her husband hurt.

fofol's original comment was that she didn't seem to care about Bobby in either story. I'd still say in the movie, she seems like an average if not a great mom. (Actually, there's no scene in the movie that shows Alma as a devoted mom either--she never caresses her children or hugs them, unlike Ennis!) As the movie goes on Lureen keeps getting more and more bleached out--a great metaphor, but you can also see it as her never-ending attempt to make herself attractive to Jack, which always fails. I imagine that her feelings for Bobby are complex, too. He's part of Jack, which is both positive and negative. And the culture would discourage her from clinging too tightly to him. So she retreats, as I suggested already, into something she can mostly control which doesn't contain a hurtful emotional dimension: the business. She's good at it. Even Jack says so. She meant to be a dynamic wife with a husband other women would envy. Instead she's a sexually frustrated woman, humiliated because this one man isn't really interested, whose only outlet is the family business.

[Marz]

Lureen was meant to be the complete opposite of Alma, basically a hard hearted bitch, alma was caring, loved ennis and her children (infact she wanted more children) it seems lureen didnt even want Bobby, he was an accident and Jack had a much more loving relationship with his son then Lureen ever did, she hardly showed any emotion when talking about jacks death to ennis on the phone, where as alma was heartbroken when she saw jack and ennis together
Lureen and Alma were as different as day and night