Alma & Lureen

[o2binla]

I do think Ennis alters Lureen's perspective of her late husband about 180 degrees with the few things he says, but I don't think it's b/c she never took Jack seriously -- she was bewildered to see others not taking her husband seriously.  She grew up used to getting what she wanted as LD's daughter, but Jack eluded her. 

[CANSTANDIT]

But she mocks his dream, ie, 'whiskey spring' and so forth, thinking it was a pretend place. She is basically laughing at him. So I think the film shows us a bit of contriteness on her part over that....

[Orleanas]

If indeed Lureen is cold and bitter in the end (as perceived by the phone conversation), doesn't it just throw it in our face how damaging Ennis's fears, his relationship with Jack really was? I mean, in the end, Lureen ends up, emotionally, the same as Jack. When we first see them, they are at their best, preening if you will, for all the world to see and bask in the glory of who and what they are. Full of life, ambitious, and carefree at the beginning, by the end, they are frustrated, bitter, and at best, a shell of their vibrant, youthful self. I am now intrigued as to how she might move on and live now that Jack is dead. Are her prospects for living a more fulfilling life now as bleak as they are for Ennis, I wonder.

[CANSTANDIT]

I see that as the point, Orleanas: The homophobia ruined everything-at least if J and E could be at one with each other, even somewhat openly, then everyone involved could understand their place in the relationship. But Ennis's denial leaves everyone hanging, even Lureen, since it made Jack so unhappy. Does that make sense?

[Orleanas]

I understand that to be the case too, CSI, but in the end, I think Ennis's fears played more of a role than the homophobia itself. The world is full of phobias and --isms. It's our perception of and our willingness to see and move beyond them that affect the quality of the life we live. Unfortunately, Ennis' fears and his denials, do leave everyone hanging, particularly Lureen. What's sad about Lureen's case is that she had no knowledge of the causes of the troubles in her marriage. This prevented her from taking action based on that knowledge, whereas Alma does know, and eventually actively chooses to take a different path.

[CANSTANDIT]

I think I see what you're saying.

[Cally]

If indeed Lureen is cold and bitter in the end (as perceived by the phone conversation), doesn't it just throw it in our face how damaging Ennis's fears, his relationship with Jack really was? I mean, in the end, Lureen ends up, emotionally, the same as Jack. When we first see them, they are at their best, preening if you will, for all the world to see and bask in the glory of who and what they are. Full of life, ambitious, and carefree at the beginning, by the end, they are frustrated, bitter, and at best, a shell of their vibrant, youthful self. I am now intrigued as to how she might move on and live now that Jack is dead. Are her prospects for living a more fulfilling life now as bleak as they are for Ennis, I wonder.

Yes, I can see that Lureen has been worn down by Jack as Jack has been by Ennis. But in the SS I don't think that Jack at the end is the same as Lureen (although as you say we've only got what she says and the sound of her voice).  Yes, he’s frustrated and bitter; he’s not cold though.  She probably realized long ago that she had nothing to hope for from Jack.  But Jack on the last trip is still affectionate and passionate, both sexually and emotionally (‘missed E bad enough’), still desperate for their next meeting.  Although he too must be to some extent disillusioned about E, I think his love is undiminished.  Then after the August/Mexico passage, in the magnificent ‘Try this one’ speech, he dares at last to express all his anger, needs and frustration (No, not all, of course, not the things unsayable or the DE).  The passion is still there, even if this is its final expression – because of death or quitting, though for my own peace of mind I have to be a NQ.

Sorry, Orleanas, I do realise that you didn’t say anything contrary to this, and also that this is much more about Jack than Lureen.  It’s just that I see them as such different characters.

[Desecra]

I think all is not at as it seems at the beginning of their relationship either.   Jack is only pretending to be carefree, really.   There are those 'other reasons' for getting out of rodeo - he's risking life and limb if he continues 'riding more than bulls'. 

[Orleanas]

If indeed Lureen is cold and bitter in the end (as perceived by the phone conversation), doesn't it just throw it in our face how damaging Ennis's fears, his relationship with Jack really was? I mean, in the end, Lureen ends up, emotionally, the same as Jack. When we first see them, they are at their best, preening if you will, for all the world to see and bask in the glory of who and what they are. Full of life, ambitious, and carefree at the beginning, by the end, they are frustrated, bitter, and at best, a shell of their vibrant, youthful self. I am now intrigued as to how she might move on and live now that Jack is dead. Are her prospects for living a more fulfilling life now as bleak as they are for Ennis, I wonder.

Yes, I can see that Lureen has been worn down by Jack as Jack has been by Ennis. But in the SS I don't think that Jack at the end is the same as Lureen (although as you say we've only got what she says and the sound of her voice).  Yes, he’s frustrated and bitter; he’s not cold though.  She probably realized long ago that she had nothing to hope for from Jack.  But Jack on the last trip is still affectionate and passionate, both sexually and emotionally (‘missed E bad enough’), still desperate for their next meeting.  Although he too must be to some extent disillusioned about E, I think his love is undiminished.  Then after the August/Mexico passage, in the magnificent ‘Try this one’ speech, he dares at last to express all his anger, needs and frustration (No, not all, of course, not the things unsayable or the DE).  The passion is still there, even if this is its final expression – because of death or quitting, though for my own peace of mind I have to be a NQ.

Sorry, Orleanas, I do realise that you didn’t say anything contrary to this, and also that this is much more about Jack than Lureen.  It’s just that I see them as such different characters.

If we are to go by the film, to some extent, Jack does become cold--to Lureen. He's rather impassive in his interaction with her at that dance with Lashawn and Randall, and in his talks about her with Ennis.

[Orleanas]

I think all is not at as it seems at the beginning of their relationship either.   Jack is only pretending to be carefree, really.   There are those 'other reasons' for getting out of rodeo - he's risking life and limb if he continues 'riding more than bulls'. 

From the text we don't know if "riding more than bulls" was an issue before or after his marriage to Lureen. It could have been that he thought having a wife--and presumably sex on the regular-- would have satisfied him, and only came to the realization after being married that he was not satiated by hetero sex and started riding more than bulls.

[Cally]

If we are to go by the film, to some extent, Jack does become cold--to Lureen

.

You're right, of course - I was only thinking of Jack and Ennis.  Off-topic too.

[o2binla]

From the text we don't know if "riding more than bulls" was an issue before or after his marriage to Lureen.

Although the films indicates he was doing some riding before Lureen, w/the Jimbo scene.  I doubt Jack struck out every time. 

CSI, I don't see Lureen as mocking Jack when she mentions the whiskey spring -- there's more going on than that.  Like she knew he was a dreamer and would spin idle b.s., esp. when bitter and drunk, but that she could feel something beneath the surface too. 

Orleanas, it does strike me as especially sad that Lureen only found out what was going on when ti was too late, as she seems like she would have reacted more decisively than Alma, and gone on to have a happy life.  (Would she have seen J&E in a clinch, and said nothing?) We think of Ennis as the most closeted of all, yet at least in terms of their marriages, it seems Jack was the most closeted one of all...

[CANSTANDIT]

hmm, I don't think it hit Lurene that Jack had some serious dreams, until she found out BBM was real..at least not in the film. IN the SS, she appears more blase, to me. FWIW.

[Marz]

just saw this in the other thread  (cant remember which one) but do you think that alma masterbated alot?
she wasn't getting virginal sex from ennis and she hated anal, i think of alma as very straight laced but surely being a young woman she had sexual feelings
also we know that lureen and jack weren't having sex at the end of there marriage ( a few years before jack died) and if the guys can do it (which they did) the girls can to!

[Sandy]

Is anal sex virginal sex?