Did Jack Quit Ennis?

[Marge_Innavera]

Yes, that's true..... and, he also had promised to marry alma.

They were engaged, so he couldn't have backed out of it. del mar, a man of his word.

In a setting where his sexuality was accepted, I don't think being a man of his word would have prevented Ennis from breaking his engagement.  Which we can assume Alma wouldn't be happy about, but being sure that this is really what you want to do is one of the reasons for engagements, and she most likely would have gotten over it and found someone else.  She certainly would have been spared a lot of disillusionment and heartache later on.

In earlier centuries, Ennis could have been sued for breach of contract but in the 1963 context I think he originally assumed that getting married and having kids what just what everybody did.

[fofol]

In a setting where his sexuality was accepted, I don't think being a man of his word would have prevented Ennis from breaking his engagement.  Which we can assume Alma wouldn't be happy about, but being sure that this is really what you want to do is one of the reasons for engagements, and she most likely would have gotten over it and found someone else.  She certainly would have been spared a lot of disillusionment and heartache later on.

In earlier centuries, Ennis could have been sued for breach of contract but in the 1963 context I think he originally assumed that getting married and having kids what just what everybody did.

  And that's the biggest lie of all - everybody's heterosexual.  This assumption of universal heterosexuality is precisely why we can't really get upset that Jack lies to Ennis directly about his sex life, and why Ennis's marriage to Alma is tragic - there was no 'official' voice, from parents to the police to the courts, that knew any different, even though the homosexual people could not live their entire lives acting against their nature...  "Society," judicial and executive and gossipy, KNEW that all homosexuality was a 'perversion' of heterosexuality, i.e., that all male homosexual activity could only be considered as separate acts done by heterosexual men, as opposed to the truth that homosexuality is a core condition just like heterosexuality, different primarily in object stimulus.  The myth of universal heterosexuality is also the only support that the big-box religions use to condemn homosexuals - it is considered primitive and unsupportable notion these days, thank you very much.

[janjo]

What a fabulous posting, Mike.
The essential truth that just won't go away, however much some bigots want it to.

[ChangeINeed]

Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...

[royandronnie]

Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...

This is very good.

[fofol]

Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...

   This post is also very interesting: one of the first thoughts I had about the film came as a question.  As I was

Very interesting discussion guys!

IMO the point isn't whether they were lying (to themselves,to each other etc) or not. What they did isn't exactly "lying" in my book. The center of the short story and the film is silence for me. A loud silence forged and emerging from fear: fear of death and being different for Ennis, fear of abandonment or even violence for Jack if his lover finds out he has sex with other men, fear of stigma and poverty for Alma, fear of failure and "daddy was right" for Lureen, fear of breaking delicate balances for the children. Therefore they prefer silence than acknowledging the pink elephant in the room.
It's characteristic that when Alma feels secure enough and thous less fearful (she has a new husband, a decent house, some money and a baby on the way) she breaks the silence and the pretense falls apart.. No need for more lies for her... (if you prefer lying over silence)
Just my thoughts...

   Great post!  My first reaction to the film was a question - how different would these lives have been had they been able to talk with one another?  No question in my mind that this was a realistic take on closeted gay love.  That said, lying is giving someone else information that is not true, or witholding such information as would change an opinion or action.  By staying away from making a judgment based on that bare-bones definition of lying, we can still see that telling the truth is usually less complicated, but that telling the truth was impossible for these guys at times d/t the times and places in which they lived.

[Marge_Innavera]

there was no 'official' voice, from parents to the police to the courts, that knew any different, even though the homosexual people could not live their entire lives acting against their nature...  "Society," judicial and executive and gossipy, KNEW that all homosexuality was a 'perversion' of heterosexuality, i.e., that all male homosexual activity could only be considered as separate acts done by heterosexual men, as opposed to the truth that homosexuality is a core condition just like heterosexuality, different primarily in object stimulus. 

Right.

And if Ennis was a more outgoing sort and had actually sought out some advice after that first summer, it's likely that even the most well-meaning person would have told him to do exactly what he did -- 'marry that nice girl you're engaged to, have some kids; this is something a lot of young men go through and grow out of.'