How Brokeback affected me

[fk]

"".....To me these moments are important because you sense Ennis and Jack have abandoned religion. While love may be a force of nature the conservative social values and the remnants of Puritan religiosity are the forces that ultimately destroy their love. This story is a true representation of queer life in rural America....''

Regarding what you said above 'Viking', I beg to differ. Whilst, what u say is true to a degree, but only to a minor degree. I'm inclined to think what really destroyed their love was simple economics. I think they both let it be known what they thought about religion, that's not to say that the remnants didn't have an effect. If i recall correctly Jack offered Ennis a life based on the money the father-in-law would pay to get rid of him, but Ennis I presume didn't want that because it would have made him an unequal in the relationship. I think that such a stance has nothing to do with conservative or religious values, if anything it had everything to do with more modern values. However, if Ennis was in a better financial position he just might have been able to make the leap i.e. if he would have been able to make his payments to the kids, provide for himself to a degree where he wouldn't have to say, 'I don't have time for much else other than making a living'. For me, that's the kernel of the real tragedy. I also imagine that a stronger economic position would have made him more immune to others' opinions.

Following on the same vein, I have recently read  Barbara Ehrenreich's 'Bait and Switch', where she documents the trials and tribulations of the American middle-class in relation to their work lives. This is a follow on to a book about low wage USA. If one relates present day circumstances to then, one can really see how little life has improved for most in western countries, if anything they seem to have disimproved. Here, I include all, and thus may help to explain to some degree how this movie resonates with all. I know it's very hard to get Americans on the economic vein and the rights and wrongs in relation to that. I guess it's much easier to focus on denial of rights, etc. and in my opinion,to miss the point. In case gays are looking across the Atlantic in envy at us over here, think again. Yes, gays, women etc. are getting more recognition of their rights, but we are coming more under the influence of right wing economic thinking. I'm in Ireland and I think such is the case in most Anglo western countries.  Germany is going down the right wing route too. The rights are being given but it seems as if it's in the context that values other than right-wing economic ones don't matter anymore, which isn't good enough either.

I understand 'amymm' that you are trying to push out the thinking on this film's effect to include others in minority situations, but I think it pushes beyond the boundaries of minority groups. Therein, common ground with str8's can be forged. Thus, they might begin to see we aren't the 2 headed monster. I hate to tick you off, but I don't exactly buy into your love whoever you want theory. It's hardly that simple. I guess one is going to love whoever, whether you want to or not. It's just as long as it doesn't cause one to abandon responsibilities  e.g. Ennis, or not Ennis as the film showed, surely?

Yes, tfferg, we sure have a big right -wing influence here too, unlike Australia we are only now beginning to get familiar with more liberal social values, no drawback there yet.

addition in response to 'Erik's' response:

I'm basically in agreement with what you state regarding the growing cultural divide between Europe and the US. But like what I've alluded to above, cultural divides misses the point. Whilst that's happening economic connections are getting closer, and even more dependent on the US. Right wing economic thinking is gaining ground in Europe. With employment protections etc  being eroded, I guess all that doesn't matter because we now have gay marriage. What happens when the resulting economic indicators are looking up, or continue to stay up, as is the case here? Property values go up and up. Thus making it harder for single and coupled folk harder to pay for a roof over their heads. Gay's are more likely to be effected by this because they are far less likely to be coupled.

[JoeNorthWest]

 I'm inclined to think what really destroyed their love was simple economics.


The assumption is that their "love was destroyed"....what makes you think that?  Perhaps it's a matter of semantics, however I do not think love can ever be destroyed...not from a philosophical perspective.  I think part of the message of the film is just that.  Love cannot be destroyed.  It's important not to confuse the "form" relationships take with the love that originally brings two people together.  Circumstances, economics or otherwise challenge all relationships and sometimes it is important for the form to change...because we change...we grow...life happens.  It does not mean we cannot sustain through commitment and agreement to grow together...and to work through issues as they arise..indeed it can be a tremendous catalyst for intimacy.  These two guys never stopped loving each other....not to dismiss the enormity of their circumstances which was/is heartbreaking...but make no mistake, their love was never destroyed and still goes on....Joe

[DaveinPhilly]

  These two guys never stopped loving each other....not to dismiss the enormity of their circumstances which was/is heartbreaking...but make no mistake, their love was never destroyed and still goes on....Joe

Yes, indeed, it cannot die. It is a mysterious thing which surpasses our understanding. Of course, we're speaking of fiction here, but as it represents reality their love continues in a different way.

[JoeNorthWest]

  These two guys never stopped loving each other....not to dismiss the enormity of their circumstances which was/is heartbreaking...but make no mistake, their love was never destroyed and still goes on....Joe

Yes, indeed, it cannot die. It is a mysterious thing which surpasses our understanding. Of course, we're speaking of fiction here, but as it represents reality their love continues in a different way.

My point exactly Dave...this film has such  powerful universal themes and archetypes...certainly part of it's brilliance....and part of the reason we are all so profoundly moved....Joe

[fk]

Dam, JoeNorthWest you are absolutely correct, their love wasn't destroyed, but it was never realised in a sense. It was wasted due to circumstances.  I guess the paradox of the adverse circumstances that kept it alive, and thus in a way protected it form life, prevented it from being tested by ordinary life. Ordinary life is probably a more destructive force. I think adversity of 2 people who aren't supposed to be together is known to enhance emotion. In a way it was never let run it's course. It may have survived, it may not have had. 

For me, the movie was far more than a love story. I just thought that the social/economic issues resonated more with me.

[DaveinPhilly]

For me, the movie was far more than a love story. I just thought that the social/economic issues resonated more with me.

You're right those forces had a tremendous impact on everything.

[tacitus]

I live in a small town, but that's really not the reason I'm alone. For a long time I have avoided dating and socializing. I always felt that nobody would be able to replace the love I lost.
And even when other people have tried to get close I ended up pushing them away.
Brokeback Mountain is helping me to re-think my behavior. I have started to be more open with people, although I still struggle with it. There is a nice guy I met a few weeks ago who really wants to get to know me better. We get along great but the romantic spark just isn't there for me. I'm trying to learn how to keep him as a friend without hurting him and pushing him away. And it was Brokeback Mountain that got us together. We were talking online and he said he wanted to see the movie, so I asked him to go with me to see it.
I act so much like Ennis and it's going to be hard to change that.

i read your post yesterday and wanted to respond but didn't have the time. hope it's not too late. i'm glad you are looking for someone to love and build a relationship with. you say you met 'a nice guy' a few weeks ago but that the 'romantic spark' was not there. been there. done that. romantic sparks, in my experience, don't last too long. 'nice' can actually be better than a 'spark' that sputters and goes out because there was little to build a relationship on aside from physical attraction or whatever ignites the spark. gay men - i confess, i'm one! - tend to be perpetually caught up in looking for the explosion. but love is more than just eye contact and body parts colliding. actually, a nice guy might turn out to turn you on after you get to know each other and discover shared interests and mutual beliefs. so why not give it a try. friendship can develop into love. i know. it's happened to me. it may not be as exciting but it can last longer and be more meaningful.   

[Erik]

"".....To me these moments are important because you sense Ennis and Jack have abandoned religion. While love may be a force of nature the conservative social values and the remnants of Puritan religiosity are the forces that ultimately destroy their love. This story is a true representation of queer life in rural America....''

Regarding what you said above 'Viking', I beg to differ. Whilst, what u say is true to a degree, but only to a minor degree. I'm inclined to think what really destroyed their love was simple economics. I think they both let it be known what they thought about religion, that's not to say that the remnants didn't have an effect. If i recall correctly Jack offered Ennis a life based on the money the father-in-law would pay to get rid of him, but Ennis I presume didn't want that because it would have made him an unequal in the relationship. I think that such a stance has nothing to do with conservative or religious values, if anything it had everything to do with more modern values. However, if Ennis was in a better financial position he just might have been able to make the leap i.e. if he would have been able to make his payments to the kids, provide for himself to a degree where he wouldn't have to say, 'I don't have time for much else other than making a living'. For me, that's the kernel of the real tragedy. I also imagine that a stronger economic position would have made him more immune to others' opinions.

addition in response to 'Erik's' response:

I'm basically in agreement with what you state regarding the growing cultural divide between Europe and the US. But like what I've alluded to above, cultural divides misses the point. Whilst that's happening economic connections are getting closer, and even more dependent on the US. Right wing economic thinking is gaining ground in Europe. With employment protections etc  being eroded, I guess all that doesn't matter because we now have gay marriage. What happens when the resulting economic indicators are looking up, or continue to stay up, as is the case here? Property values go up and up. Thus making it harder for single and coupled folk harder to pay for a roof over their heads. Gay's are more likely to be effected by this because they are far less likely to be coupled.

Are gays far  likely to be coupled? Don think so actually. Straight girls with a high education around 30 is now one of teh biggest single groups. And an economically interesting one, because well paid. After them come gay couples, relatively high salaries, no children, able and willing to spend money on housing. The situation that you describe does not apply to The Netherlands at least, don't know about Ireland of course. I really don't why gay men are more likely to remain single?

[Redbrit]

hey....  not sure where to post this, so here i am.  mods, please feel free to move this to a more appropriate spot.

i have created a livejournal community, entitled GSA Canada.  you can find it here:

http://community.livejournal.com/gsacanada/

i would like to encourage everyone to join, so that we can continue the spirit of this wonderful forum and channel it into new online communities so that we can reach people who are not necessarily into our movie.

please check out this community and if you can, leave a message.  i'd love to start something positive from this.

peace, love and brokeback...

jake

Just checked your site - brilliant - exactly the kind of thing that's needed!

[DaveinPhilly]

hey....  not sure where to post this, so here i am.  mods, please feel free to move this to a more appropriate spot.

i have created a livejournal community, entitled GSA Canada.  you can find it here:

http://community.livejournal.com/gsacanada/

i would like to encourage everyone to join, so that we can continue the spirit of this wonderful forum and channel it into new online communities so that we can reach people who are not necessarily into our movie.

please check out this community and if you can, leave a message.  i'd love to start something positive from this.

peace, love and brokeback...

jake

Just checked your site - brilliant - exactly the kind of thing that's needed!

Me too, it's beautiful.

Davein Philly

[Redbrit]

"Their intimacy, however, is more an index of an era when close male friendships, accompanied by open expressions of affection and passion, were familiar and socially acceptable.  Nor can sharing a bed bed considered evidence of an erotic involvement.  It was common practice in an era when  private sleeping quarters were a rare luxury, when males regularly slept in the same bed as children and continued to do so in academies, boarding houses, and overcrowded hotels."  In her book she quotes historian Donald Yacovone as saying the "preoccupation with elemental sex" reveals more about later centuries "than about the nineteenth."

This reminds me of something. I went to talk to one of my straight housemates the other day. He was still in bed as was his straight friend. This other guy also lives in this house so he wasn't short a bed - and I heard them coming in the night before and going into his room together. I'm not try to stir up some gossip - they are both straight - one of them has a girlfriend. I think the nearest I could describe it as was a sleep over.

Pity though - they'd make a really cute couple. 

[Redbrit]

I really haven't endured much pain because of my sexuality. Society's attitudes don't hurt me, they just piss me off.

Oh BayCityJohn, my brother! I have just discovered my motto! 

[fk]

Erik, I never said gays are more likely to be coupled. Actually I said the opposite.

''I really don't why gay men are more likely to remain single?''

Your question contradicts what you said earlier. In answer, I guess it's obvious. Since 6% are gay there is a smaller pool of people to draw from. In addition, if a gay person isn't into the scene, gay pubs etc, their chances of meeting somebody is further diminished. Thus they are invisible. Like many others, I believe the so called 'gay community', only includes a minority of gays. I seriously question the validity of surveys related to gays because of that fact. Granted in The Netherlands that may not the case, but I doubt if it's that much different. I would guess that the economic strength of all gays, is lower than str8's. I may be wrong on this?

I know personal liberties are more protected in The N than anywhere else, but is it not true that you have an increasing right - wing economic influence there?

[JoeNorthWest]

In addition, if a gay person isn't into the scene, gay pubs etc, their chances of meeting somebody is further diminished. Thus they are invisible. Like many others, I believe the so called 'gay community', only includes a minority of gays.

Just for the record, the men I have had the privilidge to be boyfrieds with I met entirely away from the "gay scene".  I've always believed that if I am out there living my life, doing those things I am most passionate about, then there will be others like me doing the same things...and one of the most powerful and attractive qualities in any person is when, to quote Joseph C..someone is "following their bliss"   it's a very attractive and sexy thing to witness.

[Redbrit]

The wisdom pouring into this thread never ceases to amaze. I am especially impressed by our womenfolk - such diverse and insightful postings. I would quote them, but then my posting would end up looking like the phone directory.

Having nothing interesting to say for myself - here's a poem I just knocked together. It doesn't rhyme on purpose, btw.


Taking stock

I live my life in plain view
I hide little that’s worth knowing
I speak my mind when I’m in the right one
And my views are piquant, pungent like stinky cheese

But is it enough?

Oh my heart’s on my sleeve
Oh my arm's at your back
Oh my breath is yours if you want it
I try to be sweet – really I do

But is it enough?

We shout and we march
We cry out our pain
We will not go quietly
Life makes a road for us and we follow, tirelessly

But is it enough?